Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5CMJH6R48002IRS@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:28:53 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15G7g3-0001I8-0A for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:27:56 +0000 Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:27:07 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: Re: W-EMED Forwarded by listowner In-reply-to: <3B3B997A.22714.F6AA95@localhost> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk References: <3B3B997A.22714.F6AA95@localhost> In article <3B3B997A.22714.F6AA95@localhost>, Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP writes > >In the UK the Resuscitation Council have produced a statement on >the legal status of first aiders in conjunction with the Dept of Health. http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.htm > >Generally, the statement can be interpreted that anyone working >correctly within their level of training is safe from prosecution, Prosecution is, however, different from being sued by the casualty - the statement from the UK Resusc Council that I am aware of is explicitly about the latter >provided that they do not leave the casualty worse than they found >them. Sadly, the victim is often worse after they are left by the care provider - this is the natural history of disease - but can provide 'grounds' for a complainant >The liability lies more with trainers who could be liable if they >had trained the first aider incorrectly. Difficult to show. Courses sign folk off as having a knowledge/skill set when they leave and could probably fairly easily distance themselves from later poor practice by a course attender > The standard of >care expected is directly related to the level of training. --Lay >person, first aider, nurse, doctor, -- regardless of whether they are >'on duty'. This is the key issue - it relates to the Bolam principal (but there is a move away from this more recently by Lord Wolff, I think) > >To quote from the statement: "Many countries, including a number >of states in the USA, have what is known as Good Samaritan >legislation.which gives people who provide emergency first aid >various levels of immunity from legal liability. It would clearly take >time to effect the introduction of such legislation in the UK and it is >not clear at the time of writing whether it is in fact necessary. The >UK has a far less litigious culture than the USA and there is little yet >to suggest that claims of this type are being actively pursued. I am surprised by this statement - litigation against doctors is rising at a fast and furious rate, along with claims following motor vehicle collisions - it is just a matter of time until the it happens to a non- doctor 'good Samaritan'.... Personally I do not believe that the UK is, anymore, 'far less litigious' (or perhaps, not for much longer) > >The main legal angle that we have in the UK is that of getting >permission. If a conscious adult says 'Do not touch me' then even to >lay a reassuring hand on their arm could be taken as assault. > > Permission is not necessary however if the victim is unable to express a view on it - but this is a more difficult area HTH Cheers -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org http://www.wemsi.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5CFY7F7AC002QIV@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:20:43 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp6vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.27]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Micron (adsl-141-158-127-48.pittpa.adsl.bellatlantic.net [141.158.127.48]) by smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA37319047; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:19:31 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:19:24 -0400 From: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? In-reply-to: <91.cab1c46.286e00d0@aol.com> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: JadedMedic@aol.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3B3CAA8C.3280.1CBDFAE@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk On 29 Jun 2001, at 12:03, JadedMedic@aol.com wrote: > Really? I had not heard of this. My understanding is that formulas > for compensation for tort damages such as property damage, medical > bills, lost wages, and "pain and suffering" are pretty standard, > although in some states (my own, California, for example) there are > caps on awards for pain and suffering. Are the federal rules > significantly different? My understanding is that this is based more on tradition than on actual law -- but you'd best ask someone who's confronted with this decision for a good answer. Just hearsay . --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5C70K9HWW002P35@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:04:31 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com (imo-m03.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JadedMedic@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.91.cab1c46 (3966); Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:03:28 -0400 (EDT) From: JadedMedic@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: kconover@pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <91.cab1c46.286e00d0@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_91.cab1c46.286e00d0_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_91.cab1c46.286e00d0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, In a message dated 6/28/01 6:10:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kconover@pitt.edu writes: > On 27 Jun 2001, at 13:18, JadedMedic@aol.com wrote: > > > I know that most good samaritan laws are state laws, so that raises a > > question: Suppose I'm out someplace such as a federal park as a > > "plain, ordinary civilian" and I stop and render aid at the scene of > > an auto accident (and, as plain ordinary civilian, I have no duty to > > do so). If I stop and help, am I covered by some sort of federal good > > samaritan law? If so, can somebody offer an opinion as to what > > section of what federal code applies? > > > > (Or does the state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on > > federal land?) > > I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. But I don't think it > matters, and here's why. [smile] I'm not an attorney either -- although perhaps I should add "yet" to that as I'm looking at going to law school next year (which is probably at least some of the reason why I'm rolling this issue around in my brain). > 1. No lawyer in his right mind tries liability in Federal court instead > of state court, as the awards in federal courts are generally a lot > smaller. Really? I had not heard of this. My understanding is that formulas for compensation for tort damages such as property damage, medical bills, lost wages, and "pain and suffering" are pretty standard, although in some states (my own, California, for example) there are caps on awards for pain and suffering. Are the federal rules significantly different? It also raises a jurisdiction question. It has to be true that incidents such as injury-producing auto accidents happen in federal parks and other types of federal land with significant frequency. I'll have to find out whether such cases are tried in federal court or state court -- or perhaps either; if there is what's called "concurrent jurisdiction" (aka "overlapping jurisdiction") in such cases the plaintiff may have an option. > > 2. Good samaritan laws are nice, as they indicated support of the > state legislature, but when you actually get into court, citation of any > good samaritan law is just a tiny bump in the way of the case, > generally has no effect on outcome. > > Um, er, um...of course, legal databases such as WestLaw mostly contain only > appellate court decisions, which are -- of course -- only rendered when an > appellate court has rendered a verdict in a case. Thus, we can't know from > such data what role, if any, Good Samaritan laws played not having cases > filed, having cases settled out of court, and trial court decisions. We > also don't know, unless we read the actual decision by the appellate court, > how much weight they gave the Good Sam argument. > > However, I notice that my original question about whether or not there's a > federal Good Samaritan law (that applies to ordinary citizen who render aid > on federal land in the absence of a duty to do so) still hasn't been > answered. Let me make a few phone calls and go a bit of other looking > around and see what I can come up with. > > Regards to all, > > Jay --part1_91.cab1c46.286e00d0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi folks,

In a message dated 6/28/01 6:10:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kconover@pitt.edu writes:

On 27 Jun 2001, at 13:18, JadedMedic@aol.com wrote:

> I know that most good samaritan laws are state laws, so that raises a
> question:  Suppose I'm out someplace such as a federal park as a
> "plain, ordinary civilian" and I stop and render aid at the scene of
> an auto accident (and, as plain ordinary civilian, I have no duty to
> do so).  If I stop and help, am I covered by some sort of federal good
> samaritan law?  If so, can somebody offer an opinion as to what
> section of what federal code applies?  
>
> (Or does the state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on
> federal land?)

I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.  But I don't think it
matters, and here's why.


[smile]  I'm not an attorney either -- although perhaps I should add "yet" to
that as I'm looking at going to law school next year (which is probably at
least some of the reason why I'm rolling this issue around in my brain).

1. No lawyer in his right mind tries liability in Federal court instead
of state court, as the awards in federal courts are generally a lot
smaller.


Really?  I had not heard of this.  My understanding is that formulas for
compensation for tort damages such as property damage, medical bills, lost
wages, and "pain and suffering" are pretty standard, although in some states
(my own, California, for example) there are caps on awards for pain and
suffering.  Are the federal rules significantly different?

It also raises a jurisdiction question.  It has to be true that incidents
such as injury-producing auto accidents happen in federal parks and other
types of federal land with significant frequency.  I'll have to find out
whether such cases are tried in federal court or state court -- or perhaps
either; if there is what's called "concurrent jurisdiction" (aka "overlapping
jurisdiction") in such cases the plaintiff may have an option.

2. Good samaritan laws are nice, as they indicated support of the
state legislature, but when you actually get into court, citation of any
good samaritan law is just a tiny bump in the way of the case,
generally has no effect on outcome.

Um, er, um...of course, legal databases such as WestLaw mostly contain only
appellate court decisions, which are -- of course -- only rendered when an
appellate court has rendered a verdict in a case.  Thus, we can't know from
such data what role, if any, Good Samaritan laws played not having cases
filed, having cases settled out of court, and trial court decisions.  We
also don't know, unless we read the actual decision by the appellate court,
how much weight they gave the Good Sam argument.

However, I notice that my original question about whether or not there's a
federal Good Samaritan law (that applies to ordinary citizen who render aid
on federal land in the absence of a duty to do so) still hasn't been
answered.  Let me make a few phone calls and go a bit of other looking
around and see what I can come up with.

Regards to all,

Jay

 --part1_91.cab1c46.286e00d0_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5C7C2G2W4004B3J@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:13:48 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.mxim.com ([198.145.56.3]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.mxim.com (huron.mxim.com [172.17.100.121]) by smtp.mxim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AD312D02; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:54:11 -0700 From: Hal Lillywhite Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? In-reply-to: "Your message of Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:54:18 EDT." <3B3B997A.348.F6AB8F@localhost> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: hall@mxim.com Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <20010629155416.B8AD312D02@smtp.mxim.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk In message <3B3B997A.348.F6AB8F@localhost>, "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" writes : >I'm not an attorney,.. Nor I, I've got enough sins without that. :-) [Good explanation of Good Samaritan Laws deleted for brevity] >Indeed, there was an abstract in Prehospital and Disaster Medicine >that is apropos: ... > The appellate courts ruled in favor of 68% of the defendants >that did not use an immunity defense, and in favor of 72% of those >that did use liability immunity. >Conclusion: Then have been a 1arge number of recent appellate >cases involving EMS systems. The common characteristics of many >of these cases demonstrates the need for providing rapid >ambulance arrival proper assessment and treatment' and rapid >patient transportation to a hospital. Although liability immunity was >used as a legal defense by most EMS system defendants, the >appellate court outcome was similar regardless of its use. Interesting study but I'm not sure it has any real meaning. Note that this study seems to be limited to appellate cases. I believe that, with few exceptions, only the most difficult cases ever reach that stage. Most cases are settled in the primary courts and it is there we should look if we want an indication of the true effect of Good Samaritan Laws. How many cases were immediately dismissed or otherwise decided in favor of the defendant in the primary courts, with and without use of GS laws? Unless we get that answer from the primary courts we don't have any real basis for a conclusion. Of course the real effect of these laws is much harder to measure. How many defendants got off using GS laws who would have lost otherwise? Very difficult to measure. Even more difficult, how many suits were never filed because the possible plaintiff or his lawyer thought the GS law would prevent a favorable verdict? This probably particularly true of the cases where the plaintiff just wants to get some money from a defendant who figures it's cheaper to settle than fight it in court. With GS laws the lawyers are probably less willing to file such frivolous suits (especially on a contingency basis), and defendants are probably more willing to fight them instead if just paying to avoid court. I'm afraid this study really doesn't say anything about how effective GS laws are. Of course, as several people have mentioned, we know these laws won't protect against flagrant disregard of patient safety or good practices. Anyone, volunteer or paid, must try to provide good care if they undertake to treat a patient. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5C42WELG6002PA6@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:40:07 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gate1.health.state.ny.us (gate.health.state.ny.us [192.135.176.62]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gate1.health.state.ny.us id KAA18972 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu) ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:39:03 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:38:37 -0400 From: rrt01@health.state.ny.us Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <200106291439.KAA18972@gate1.health.state.ny.us> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu id KAA20106 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-Mimetrack: Serialize by Router on MailGate/Server/DOH(Release 5.07a |May 14, 2001) at 06/29/2001 10:39:03 AM Plain English explanation of a Good Samaritan law...What a concept! Thanks, Steve! Raymond R. Thielke, EMT/P, MA(c) New York State Dept of Health Syracuse, NY Steven Pirie @list.pitt.edu on 06/28/2001 10:50:43 PM Please respond to wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Sent by: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: cc: Subject: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? on 6/28/01 01:30, Frits van Doorn at fvdoorn@nlr.nl wrote: What does other countries say of this? The answer is not as complicated here in Ontario as the US of A. Here is a copy (without permission) of the publication It Doesn't Hurt To Help put out by the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General. I am sure that you will find it informative and / or useful. START -----    One day you may be present at the scene of an accident. Someone in distress may require your help. How will you react?    Will you go immediately to that person's aid? Or will you hesitate out of fear of legal action? There is no need to hesitate. If you can help, the law is on your side.     Ontario law is clear: whether you have medical training or not, the courts expect you to use common sense. Do what is reasonable considering the seriousness of the situation and your own skills.  It doesn't hurt to help.    What the law looks for is a common sense approach from anyone who stops to help another in an emergency. Even medical people are expected to provide only assistance that is reasonable, considering their training, the circumstances of the accident and the extent of the injuries involved. For example, the law takes into consideration that it is obviously more difficult to treat a severely injured person on a dark roadside without equipment than it would be in a hospital emergency room.  With this in mind, in an emergency medical situation, and doctor, nurse or medical person, including someone trained in assisting, should step forward to help with no real concern for a successful lawsuit against them. The law does expect you to be cautious when your actions could affect others. You do not want to cause more harm then good to the person you are trying to help. If the life of the victim is not in danger and you don't know what to do, stay with the victim, if possible, and send for help.  The law also requires that once you have accepted responsibility for giving emergency assistance to a victim of accident or illness, you must continue to give help until another person is able to take over - the desirable person being one with medical training, of course. The reason is that the person initially offering help may have discouraged any other potential helper. There is no general legal duty to help someone in an emergency. However in a few cases people do have a specific legal duty to provide assistance. One of the most important is the legal duty placed on any person involved in a motor vehicle accident. That person must stop and give all possible assistance to the persons involved. As another example, a lifeguard would have a duty to assist a drowning swimmer. Give the help that you would hope to receive if you were in similar circumstances. What You Can Do: - Identify yourself to the injured person. If you are a nurse, a doctor or a person trained in first aid, say so. - If the person is conscious, ask the person if he or she wants help. A person has the right to refuse assistance and it is unlawful to act against the person's wishes. - If a conscious adult or older child willingly accepts your help, you have sufficient authority under the circumstances to help. - If a young child requires emergency medical care and a parent is not available to consent, you can provide emergency aid. - If the person is unconscious, extend any urgent care necessary. Additional copies of this pamphlet are available by writing to: Communications Office Ministry of the Attorney General 720 Bay Street Toronto, Ontario M5G 2K1 --- END Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5B93J6OOM00432C@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:53:23 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (femail3.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.90]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [24.114.201.181] by femail3.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010628235206.KIEF25851.femail3.rdc1.on.home.com@[24.114.201.181]> for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:52:06 -0700 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:50:43 -0700 From: Steven Pirie Subject: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3076602643_18949_MIME_Part" Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3076602643_18949_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 6/28/01 01:30, Frits van Doorn at fvdoorn@nlr.nl wrote: What does other countries say of this? The answer is not as complicated here in Ontario as the US of A. Here is a copy (without permission) of the publication It Doesn't Hurt To Help put out by the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General. I am sure that you will find it informative and / or useful. START ----- One day you may be present at the scene of an accident. Someone in distress may require your help. How will you react? Will you go immediately to that person's aid? Or will you hesitate out of fear of legal action? There is no need to hesitate. If you can help, the law is on your side. Ontario law is clear: whether you have medical training or not, the courts expect you to use common sense. Do what is reasonable considering the seriousness of the situation and your own skills. It doesn't hurt to help. What the law looks for is a common sense approach from anyone who stops to help another in an emergency. Even medical people are expected to provide only assistance that is reasonable, considering their training, the circumstances of the accident and the extent of the injuries involved. For example, the law takes into consideration that it is obviously more difficult to treat a severely injured person on a dark roadside without equipment than it would be in a hospital emergency room. With this in mind, in an emergency medical situation, and doctor, nurse or medical person, including someone trained in assisting, should step forward to help with no real concern for a successful lawsuit against them. The law does expect you to be cautious when your actions could affect others. You do not want to cause more harm then good to the person you are trying to help. If the life of the victim is not in danger and you don't know what to do, stay with the victim, if possible, and send for help. The law also requires that once you have accepted responsibility for giving emergency assistance to a victim of accident or illness, you must continue to give help until another person is able to take over - the desirable person being one with medical training, of course. The reason is that the person initially offering help may have discouraged any other potential helper. There is no general legal duty to help someone in an emergency. However in a few cases people do have a specific legal duty to provide assistance. One of the most important is the legal duty placed on any person involved in a motor vehicle accident. That person must stop and give all possible assistance to the persons involved. As another example, a lifeguard would have a duty to assist a drowning swimmer. Give the help that you would hope to receive if you were in similar circumstances. What You Can Do: - Identify yourself to the injured person. If you are a nurse, a doctor or a person trained in first aid, say so. - If the person is conscious, ask the person if he or she wants help. A person has the right to refuse assistance and it is unlawful to act against the person's wishes. - If a conscious adult or older child willingly accepts your help, you have sufficient authority under the circumstances to help. - If a young child requires emergency medical care and a parent is not available to consent, you can provide emergency aid. - If the person is unconscious, extend any urgent care necessary. Additional copies of this pamphlet are available by writing to: Communications Office Ministry of the Attorney General 720 Bay Street Toronto, Ontario M5G 2K1 --- END --MS_Mac_OE_3076602643_18949_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? on 6/28/01 01:30, Frits van Doorn at fvdoorn@nlr.nl wrote:

What do= es other countries say of this?

The answer is not as complicated here in Ontario as the= US of A. Here is a copy (without permission) of the publication It Doesn't = Hurt To Help put out by the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General. I am s= ure that you will find it informative and / or useful.

START
-----
   One day you may be present at the scene of an accident. = Someone in distress may require your help. How will you react?
   Will you go immediately to that person's aid? Or will yo= u hesitate out of fear of legal action? There is no need to hesitate. If you= can help, the law is on your side.     Ontario law is c= lear: whether you have medical training or not, the courts expect you to use= common sense. Do what is reasonable considering the seriousness of the situ= ation and your own skills.  It doesn't hurt to help.
   What the law looks for is a common sense approach from a= nyone who stops to help another in an emergency. Even medical people are exp= ected to provide only assistance that is reasonable, considering their train= ing, the circumstances of the accident and the extent of the injuries involv= ed. For example, the law takes into consideration that it is obviously more = difficult to treat a severely injured person on a dark roadside without equi= pment than it would be in a hospital emergency room.  With this in mind= , in an emergency medical situation, and doctor, nurse or medical person, in= cluding someone trained in assisting, should step forward to help with no re= al concern for a successful lawsuit against them. The law does expect you to= be cautious when your actions could affect others. You do not want to cause= more harm then good to the person you are trying to help. If the life of th= e victim is not in danger and you don't know what to do, stay with the victi= m, if possible, and send for help.  The law also requires that once you= have accepted responsibility for giving emergency assistance to a victim of= accident or illness, you must continue to give help until another person is= able to take over - the desirable person being one with medical training, o= f course. The reason is that the person initially offering help may have dis= couraged any other potential helper. There is no general legal duty to help = someone in an emergency. However in a few cases people do have a specific le= gal duty to provide assistance. One of the most important is the legal duty = placed on any person involved in a motor vehicle accident. That person must = stop and give all possible assistance to the persons involved. As another ex= ample, a lifeguard would have a duty to assist a drowning swimmer. Give the = help that you would hope to receive if you were in similar circumstances. &n= bsp;   

What You Can Do:
- Identify yourself to the injured person. If you are a nurse, a doctor or = a person trained in first aid, say so.
- If the person is conscious, ask the person if he or she wants help. A per= son has the right to refuse assistance and it is unlawful to act against the= person's wishes. - If a conscious adult or older child willingly accepts yo= ur help, you have sufficient authority under the circumstances to help.
- If a young child requires emergency medical care and a parent is not ava= ilable to consent, you can provide emergency aid. - If the person is unconsc= ious, extend any urgent care necessary.

Additional copies of this pamphlet are available by writing to: Communicati= ons Office
Ministry of the Attorney General
720 Bay Street
Toronto, Ontario
M5G 2K1

---
END


--MS_Mac_OE_3076602643_18949_MIME_Part-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5BB9IRXVU002890@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:55:29 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp7vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.28]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Micron (adsl-141-158-127-48.pittpa.adsl.bellatlantic.net [141.158.127.48]) by smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA37875599 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:54:22 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:54:18 -0400 From: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" Subject: W-EMED Forwarded by listowner Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3B3B997A.22714.F6AA95@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk [message forwarded by listowner, bounced due to submission from nonmemeber address] Hi Fritz In the UK the Resuscitation Council have produced a statement on the legal status of first aiders in conjunction with the Dept of Health. Generally, the statement can be interpreted that anyone working correctly within their level of training is safe from prosecution, provided that they do not leave the casualty worse than they found them. The liability lies more with trainers who could be liable if they had trained the first aider incorrectly. The position is becoming more difficult with the wider use of AEDs where it may be easier to do harm, especially if the machine malfunctions or is poorly maintained. (we do not have a 'wrongful life' law) The standard of care expected is directly related to the level of training. --Lay person, first aider, nurse, doctor, -- regardless of whether they are 'on duty'. To quote from the statement: "Many countries, including a number of states in the USA, have what is known as Good Samaritan legislation.which gives people who provide emergency first aid various levels of immunity from legal liability. It would clearly take time to effect the introduction of such legislation in the UK and it is not clear at the time of writing whether it is in fact necessary. The UK has a far less litigious culture than the USA and there is little yet to suggest that claims of this type are being actively pursued. It is in practice, extremely difficult to envisage (and no precedent has yet been found) how a victim could successfully sue an individual who rendered him aid in an emergency situation. If anyone were to bring a successful claim, it is likely that the rescuer would have to have acted in a grossly negligent fashion, and if this was the case, it would probably not be desirable to introduce legislation to protect him." (Resuscitation Council UK. 23 Oct 2000) The main legal angle that we have in the UK is that of getting permission. If a conscious adult says 'Do not touch me' then even to lay a reassuring hand on their arm could be taken as assault. Question: How do you rescue a litigation lawyer from drowning? Answer: Take your foot off his head. (but if you do, he will sue you) Nigel Smee Mediact First Aid Training 01298 71827 --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5BB9NBS3C003YBF@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:55:35 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp7vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.28]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Micron (adsl-141-158-127-48.pittpa.adsl.bellatlantic.net [141.158.127.48]) by smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA37249061; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:54:25 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:54:18 -0400 From: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? In-reply-to: <107.1d9d628.286b6f61@aol.com> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: JadedMedic@aol.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3B3B997A.348.F6AB8F@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk On 27 Jun 2001, at 13:18, JadedMedic@aol.com wrote: > I know that most good samaritan laws are state laws, so that raises a > question: Suppose I'm out someplace such as a federal park as a > "plain, ordinary civilian" and I stop and render aid at the scene of > an auto accident (and, as plain ordinary civilian, I have no duty to > do so). If I stop and help, am I covered by some sort of federal good > samaritan law? If so, can somebody offer an opinion as to what > section of what federal code applies? > > (Or does the state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on > federal land?) I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV. But I don't think it matters, and here's why. 1. No lawyer in his right mind tries liability in Federal court instead of state court, as the awards in federal courts are generally a lot smaller. 2. Good samaritan laws are nice, as they indicated support of the state legislature, but when you actually get into court, citation of any good samaritan law is just a tiny bump in the way of the case, generally has no effect on outcome. Here is some text I saved from a similar discussion, although not about federal land, on another list: -------------- A few important points. Medical practice is regulated on a state-by- state level, and every state has a different "Good Samaritan Law." And so you have to preface this by noting that each state is different. But there are several general principles that apply for almost all states. Good Samaritan Laws provide immunity from civil actions (being "sued") for those who provide emergency care: 1. without compensation 2. in good faith 3. without gross negligence. Note that (1) may or may not apply to the salaries of EMTs, paramedics and doctors who are paid to provide prehospital care -- some states specifically include such people in Good Samaritan protection, other states exclude them. (2) means that you aren't pretending to help and really trying to kill the person. Some states offer protection specifically to those who have CPR or other medical, others apply to everyone. The first Good Samaritan laws were specifically to encourages physicians to stop at the scene of an emergency without fear of being sued. Note that (3) specifically says "gross" negligence, which requires a higher standard of proof than plain negligence. Law suits (civil suits) are a legal action where a person attempts to reclaim money from someone who allegedly wronged the person; distinguished from a criminal action, which is brought by the government against a person for violating the law. Civil suits may arise from claims of negligence, or from claims of intentional damage (known as tort claims). A civil suit can be brought by anyone against anyone else, irrespective of how poorly grounded the claim, Good Samaritan and other laws notwithstanding. An example of a tort claim would be a claim of battery, when you treated (touched) a patient who was alert, oriented, and legally competent, and who refused treatment. Another would be a claim that through your negligent emergency care at the roadside, the patient suffered harm. A good Samaritan law may be cited in the defense of such a claim, but is only one of many items that are taken in consideration. Indeed, there was an abstract in Prehospital and Disaster Medicine that is apropos: Liability Immunity as a Legal Defense for Recent Emergency Medical Service System Litigation David L Morgan, MD, Vicky A. Trompler, MD, William R. Trail, JD Division of Emergency Medicine University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Dallas Texas Purpose: To review all recent EMS system civil litigation appellate cases to determine their common characteristics and the number that used liability immunity (sovereign immunity, emergency medical care immunity, or Good Samaritan immunity) as a legal defense. Methods: The WESTLAW (R) computerized database of legal cases from all state and federal appellate courts was used to obtain all legal cases that named a member of the EMS system as a defendant, involved either a patient care incident or ambulance e collision, and received an appellate court opinion from 1987 to 1992. Results: Eighty-six cases were found and analyzed. Most cases (85%) were related to a patient-care incident and 71% of the cases involved a death or significant physical injury. More than 49% of the patient cases alleged inadequate assessment or treatment and 27% a11eged delay in ambulance arrival or no ambulance arrival. There were 11 cases (15%) alleging no transport of the patient to the hospital. Liability immunity was used as a defense in 53 of the cases. The appellate courts ruled in favor of 68% of the defendants that did not use an immunity defense, and in favor of 72% of those that did use liability immunity. Conclusion: Then have been a 1arge number of recent appellate cases involving EMS systems. The common characteristics of many of these cases demonstrates the need for providing rapid ambulance arrival proper assessment and treatment' and rapid patient transportation to a hospital. Although liability immunity was used as a legal defense by most EMS system defendants, the appellate court outcome was similar regardless of its use. (Poster 1-3, NAEMSP 1994 Poster Sessions, July-September 1994). BTW, Negligence claims hinge on the plaintiff (the individual suing) proving that a chain of five elements occurred. To prove negligence, the plaintiff must prove (1) that you had a duty to act on behalf of the plaintiff, (2) that you committed an unreasonable act or omission in the context of this duty, (3) an injury occurred to the plaintiff, (4) proximate cause (your act or omission must have caused the injury), and (5) forseeability: you must have been able to foresee the possibility of injury. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5ACWKOUQM002DX3@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:31:31 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-server.nlr.nl (spider.nlr.nl [137.17.80.200]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PCR030N (pcr030n.nlr.nl [137.17.228.143]) by smtp-server.nlr.nl (8.11.2/8.11.2/NLR 24/01/2001) with SMTP id f5S8UQh5085805; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:30:26 +0200 (CDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:30:38 +0200 From: Frits van Doorn Subject: RE: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? In-reply-to: <107.1d9d628.286b6f61@aol.com> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0FFBD.5FE8D490" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Disclaimer: "The National Aerospace Laboratory NLR DOES NOT ACCEPT ANY FINANCIAL COMMITMENT derived from this message." This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0FFBD.5FE8D490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does other countries say of this? And are there states in the States that have a different opinion about this Samaritan law? Is it a law? Frits van Doorn the Netherlands -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of JadedMedic@aol.com Sent: woensdag 27 juni 2001 19:18 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Hi folks, Say, I have a question. I know that most good samaritan laws are state laws, so that raises a question: Suppose I'm out someplace such as a federal park as a "plain, ordinary civilian" and I stop and render aid at the scene of an auto accident (and, as plain ordinary civilian, I have no duty to do so). If I stop and help, am I covered by some sort of federal good samaritan law? If so, can somebody offer an opinion as to what section of what federal code applies? (Or does the state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on federal land?) Regards to all, Jay ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0FFBD.5FE8D490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What=20 does other countries say of this?
 
And=20 are there states in the States that have a different opinion about this=20 Samaritan law?
Is it=20 a law?
 
Frits=20 van Doorn
the=20 Netherlands
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu=20 [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf = Of=20 JadedMedic@aol.com
Sent: woensdag 27 juni 2001=20 19:18
To:=20 wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu
Subject: W-EMED = Is there=20 a federal "Good Samaritan" law?


Hi folks,

Say, I = have a=20 question.  

I know that most good samaritan laws are = state laws,=20 so that raises a
question:  Suppose I'm out someplace such as = a=20 federal park as a "plain,
ordinary civilian" and I stop and render = aid at=20 the scene of an auto accident
(and, as plain ordinary civilian, I = have no=20 duty to do so).  If I stop and
help, am I covered by some = sort of=20 federal good samaritan law?  If so, can
somebody offer an = opinion as=20 to what section of what federal code applies?  

(Or does = the=20 state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on federal =
land?)=20

Regards to all,

Jay = ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0FFBD.5FE8D490-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5A1K941WU002DX3@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:07:01 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LNMolino@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.6f.174c6c49 (4262) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: LNMolino@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <6f.174c6c49.286bf904@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10513 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6f.174c6c49.286bf904_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_6f.174c6c49.286bf904_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The way I read the Volunteer Protection Act it protects those volunteers on federal land doing an authorized action. I would bet it was for park service volunteers and the like. The more pertinent question was if Joe Citizen is driving through and does his thing does the state Good Sam law apply or is there a specific federal version? Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@aol.com New Jersey, a peninsula trying to become an island. The opinions stated here are that of the author and in no way shape or form reflect the opinions of any organization(s) that he is in any way affiliated with unless otherwise stated herein. --part1_6f.174c6c49.286bf904_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The way I read the Volunteer Protection Act it protects those volunteers on
federal land doing an authorized action. I would bet it was for park service
volunteers and the like. The more pertinent question was if Joe Citizen is
driving through and does his thing does the state Good Sam law apply or is
there a specific federal version?

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET
FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI
LNMolino@aol.com

New Jersey, a peninsula trying to become an island.

The opinions stated here are that of the author and in no way shape or form
reflect the opinions of any organization(s) that he is in any way affiliated
with unless otherwise stated herein. --part1_6f.174c6c49.286bf904_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59TCXFB02003M90@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:12:02 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Mobile9@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.11e.e595bc (4392) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mobile9@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <11e.e595bc.286bc1fd@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk I think (needs some research), that if a third party, not engaged in any official capacity, happens on scene with an injured person needing attention, and the third party has some qualifications (Like an EMT or a PJ, etc.), then the action taken by the Good Samaritan will be protected by an applicable state law; that is, I think the federal government would cede jurisdiction to the state. If that is universally applied, then everyone would know to look to the Good Samaritan laws of the state. In my case, if I come on the site if an injury and can assist, I make sure to make a quick call on the radio and ensure I am under verbal orders. But I make sure I always do whatever under a Coast Guard umbrella. As a former attorney, I like the umbrella. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59O8RHN34003M90@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:45:08 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JadedMedic@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.106.1dceb8a (4329) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:44:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:44:05 -0400 (EDT) From: JadedMedic@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <106.1dceb8a.286b9f95@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_106.1dceb8a.286b9f95_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_106.1dceb8a.286b9f95_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi (again) folks, This is a good reference and I thank you for it -- and I'll wander over to Firstgov.gov and see what else I can find. However, upon close reading of the statute, the wording seems to address volunteers who are responding as part of some sort of "official" rescue squad. While I'm glad that such crew members have this coverage, the cited statute does not seem to apply to someone who happens upon an auto accident or something similar and stops to render aid in a "plain, ordinary citizen" capacity. Has anybody got a code and section number for a statute that provides some sort of Good Samaritan protection to "plain ordinary citizens" who render aid on federal land? Regards to all, Jay [prior emails below] xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx In a message dated 6/27/01 12:17:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mobile9@aol.com writes: > > Stopped to take a look in the Federal statutes. What you are looking for > is > the "Volunteer Protection Act of 1997. The most pertinent Part of it is > attached. You can easily access this by going through "Firstgov.gov and > going to the Federal Statutes. Here's the pertinent text. > > _________ > Liability protection for volunteers. > > No volunteer for a nonprofit organization or governmental entity will be > liable for harm caused by an act or omission of the volunteer operating on > behalf of the organization or entity if: > the volunteer was acting within the scope of his responsibilities in the > organization or governmental entity at the time of the act or omission; > > the volunteer was properly licensed, certified or authorized by the > appropriate authorities for the activities or practice in the State in > which > the harm occurred, and the harm occurred within the scope of the > volunteer's > responsibilities for the organization or entity; and > > the harm was not caused by willful or criminal misconduct, gross > negligence, > reckless misconduct, or a conscious, flagrant indifference to the rights or > safety of the individual harmed by the volunteer. Responsibility of > volunteers to organizations and entities.These limitations do not affect a > civil action brought against a volunteer by his organization or entity. > Exceptions to volunteer liability protection.If a State's laws limit > volunteer liability subject to one or more of the following conditions, > such > conditions will not be construed as inconsistent with the Act: > a State law that requires a nonprofit or governmental entity to adhere to > risk management procedures, including mandatory training of volunteers; > ..... > > Ted Dunbar > District Communications Officer > Emergency Response Officer > Eleventh District NR > United States Coast Guard Auxiliary > > --part1_106.1dceb8a.286b9f95_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi (again) folks,

This is a good reference and I thank you for it -- and I'll wander over to
Firstgov.gov and see what else I can find.

However, upon close reading of the statute, the wording seems to address
volunteers who are responding as part of some sort of "official" rescue
squad.  While I'm glad that such crew members have this coverage, the cited
statute does not seem to apply to someone who happens upon an auto accident
or something similar and stops to render aid in a "plain, ordinary citizen"
capacity.

Has anybody got a code and section number for a statute that provides some
sort of Good Samaritan protection to "plain ordinary citizens" who render aid
on federal land?

Regards to all,

Jay

[prior emails below]
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In a message dated 6/27/01 12:17:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mobile9@aol.com
writes:

Stopped to take a look in the Federal statutes.  What you are looking for
is
the "Volunteer Protection Act of 1997.  The most pertinent Part of it is
attached.  You can easily access this by going through "Firstgov.gov and
going to the Federal Statutes. Here's the pertinent text.

_________
Liability protection for volunteers.

No volunteer for a nonprofit organization or governmental entity will be
liable for harm caused by an act or omission of the volunteer operating on
behalf of the organization or entity if:
the volunteer was acting within the scope of his responsibilities in the
organization or governmental entity at the time of the act or omission;

the volunteer was properly licensed, certified or authorized by the
appropriate authorities for the activities or practice in the State in
which
the harm occurred, and the harm occurred within the scope of the
volunteer's
responsibilities for the organization or entity; and

the harm was not caused by willful or criminal misconduct, gross
negligence,
reckless misconduct, or a conscious, flagrant indifference to the rights or
safety of the individual harmed by the volunteer. Responsibility of
volunteers to organizations and entities.These limitations do not affect a
civil action brought against a volunteer by his organization or entity.
Exceptions to volunteer liability protection.If a State's laws limit
volunteer liability subject to one or more of the following conditions,
such
conditions will not be construed as inconsistent with the Act:
a State law that requires a nonprofit or governmental entity to adhere to
risk management procedures, including mandatory training of volunteers;
.....

Ted Dunbar
District Communications Officer
Emergency Response Officer
Eleventh District NR
United States Coast Guard Auxiliary



--part1_106.1dceb8a.286b9f95_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59KOEXSPY002GY7@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:03:13 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LNMolino@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.ad.c91013f (4562) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:02:15 -0400 (EDT) From: LNMolino@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10513 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ad.c91013f.286b87b7_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_ad.c91013f.286b87b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great? Wish I had an answer! I do work on a pair of military bases in New Jersey so I can ask about this but I don't see the Base till Saturday. (see me smiling ;((. Great question though. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@aol.com New Jersey, a peninsula trying to become an island. The opinions stated here are that of the author and in no way shape or form reflect the opinions of any organization(s) that he is in any way affiliated with unless otherwise stated herein. --part1_ad.c91013f.286b87b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great? Wish I had an answer!

I do work on a pair of military bases in New Jersey so I can ask about this
but I don't see the Base till Saturday. (see me smiling ;((.

Great question though.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET
FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI
LNMolino@aol.com

New Jersey, a peninsula trying to become an island.

The opinions stated here are that of the author and in no way shape or form
reflect the opinions of any organization(s) that he is in any way affiliated
with unless otherwise stated herein. --part1_ad.c91013f.286b87b7_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59K1M0B84003XBK@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:44:50 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Mobile9@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.ce.16b4a236 (4387) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:43:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mobile9@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ce.16b4a236.286b8368_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_ce.16b4a236.286b8368_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stopped to take a look in the Federal statutes. What you are looking for is the "Volunteer Protection Act of 1997. The most pertinent Part of it is attached. You can easily access this by going through "Firstgov.gov and going to the Federal Statutes. Here's the pertinent text. _________ Liability protection for volunteers. No volunteer for a nonprofit organization or governmental entity will be liable for harm caused by an act or omission of the volunteer operating on behalf of the organization or entity if: the volunteer was acting within the scope of his responsibilities in the organization or governmental entity at the time of the act or omission; the volunteer was properly licensed, certified or authorized by the appropriate authorities for the activities or practice in the State in which the harm occurred, and the harm occurred within the scope of the volunteer's responsibilities for the organization or entity; and the harm was not caused by willful or criminal misconduct, gross negligence, reckless misconduct, or a conscious, flagrant indifference to the rights or safety of the individual harmed by the volunteer. Responsibility of volunteers to organizations and entities.These limitations do not affect a civil action brought against a volunteer by his organization or entity. Exceptions to volunteer liability protection.If a State's laws limit volunteer liability subject to one or more of the following conditions, such conditions will not be construed as inconsistent with the Act: a State law that requires a nonprofit or governmental entity to adhere to risk management procedures, including mandatory training of volunteers; ..... Ted Dunbar District Communications Officer Emergency Response Officer Eleventh District NR United States Coast Guard Auxiliary --part1_ce.16b4a236.286b8368_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stopped to take a look in the Federal statutes.  What you are looking for is
the "Volunteer Protection Act of 1997.  The most pertinent Part of it is
attached.  You can easily access this by going through "Firstgov.gov and
going to the Federal Statutes. Here's the pertinent text.

_________
Liability protection for volunteers.

No volunteer for a nonprofit organization or governmental entity will be
liable for harm caused by an act or omission of the volunteer operating on
behalf of the organization or entity if:
the volunteer was acting within the scope of his responsibilities in the
organization or governmental entity at the time of the act or omission;

the volunteer was properly licensed, certified or authorized by the
appropriate authorities for the activities or practice in the State in which
the harm occurred, and the harm occurred within the scope of the volunteer's
responsibilities for the organization or entity; and

the harm was not caused by willful or criminal misconduct, gross negligence,
reckless misconduct, or a conscious, flagrant indifference to the rights or
safety of the individual harmed by the volunteer. Responsibility of
volunteers to organizations and entities.These limitations do not affect a
civil action brought against a volunteer by his organization or entity.
Exceptions to volunteer liability protection.If a State's laws limit
volunteer liability subject to one or more of the following conditions, such
conditions will not be construed as inconsistent with the Act:
a State law that requires a nonprofit or governmental entity to adhere to
risk management procedures, including mandatory training of volunteers; .....

Ted Dunbar
District Communications Officer
Emergency Response Officer
Eleventh District NR
United States Coast Guard Auxiliary --part1_ce.16b4a236.286b8368_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59JAP05PW002JFC@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:23:55 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Mobile9@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.77.16bd4616 (4387) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:22:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mobile9@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <77.16bd4616.286b7e73@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_77.16bd4616.286b7e73_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_77.16bd4616.286b7e73_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know there is for federal employees; it protects the good Samaritan as long as s/he is qualified to do the procedure. I've never seen any legislative protection for the person who provides aid at the scene, but it seems counterintuitive that liability would be attached if everyone else is protected. Ted Dunbar District Communications Officer Emergency Response Officer 11th District, Northern Region United States Coast Guard Auxiliary --part1_77.16bd4616.286b7e73_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know there is for federal employees; it protects the good Samaritan as long
as s/he is qualified to do the procedure.  I've never seen any legislative
protection for the person who provides aid at the scene, but it seems
counterintuitive that liability would be attached if everyone else is
protected.

Ted Dunbar
District Communications Officer
Emergency Response Officer
11th District, Northern Region
United States Coast Guard Auxiliary --part1_77.16bd4616.286b7e73_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59H2JA4YY002CBU@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:20:04 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JadedMedic@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.6.) id h.107.1d9d628 (16790) for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:18:25 -0400 (EDT) From: JadedMedic@aol.com Subject: W-EMED Is there a federal "Good Samaritan" law? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <107.1d9d628.286b6f61@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_107.1d9d628.286b6f61_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_107.1d9d628.286b6f61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, Say, I have a question. I know that most good samaritan laws are state laws, so that raises a question: Suppose I'm out someplace such as a federal park as a "plain, ordinary civilian" and I stop and render aid at the scene of an auto accident (and, as plain ordinary civilian, I have no duty to do so). If I stop and help, am I covered by some sort of federal good samaritan law? If so, can somebody offer an opinion as to what section of what federal code applies? (Or does the state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on federal land?) Regards to all, Jay --part1_107.1d9d628.286b6f61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi folks,

Say, I have a question.  

I know that most good samaritan laws are state laws, so that raises a
question:  Suppose I'm out someplace such as a federal park as a "plain,
ordinary civilian" and I stop and render aid at the scene of an auto accident
(and, as plain ordinary civilian, I have no duty to do so).  If I stop and
help, am I covered by some sort of federal good samaritan law?  If so, can
somebody offer an opinion as to what section of what federal code applies?  

(Or does the state's good samaritan law cover me even though I'm on federal
land?)

Regards to all,

Jay --part1_107.1d9d628.286b6f61_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4M4GWOWRS00177L@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:10:49 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp5ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp5vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.26]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Micron (adsl-141-158-127-48.pittpa.adsl.bellatlantic.net [141.158.127.48]) by smtp5ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15663723; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:08:36 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:08:35 -0400 From: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" Subject: W-EMED new WEMSI phone number Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: wemsi-staff@list.pitt.edu, asrc@list.pitt.edu, erncrc@egroups.com Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3B23D3C3.16857.17E3015@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk The direct-dial number for WEMS Wilderness Command Physician consulatation is still 1-412-232-5678 But the tollfree number has changed to: 1-888-866-3729 Please change your reference cards appropriately. Thank you. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3MZTK3NMA0127A7@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:40:31 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f36.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.36]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:39:44 -0700 Received: from 195.175.216.136 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:39:44 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:39:44 From: Gurkan Ozel Subject: W-EMED History of WildMed! Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [195.175.216.136] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 May 2001 20:39:44.0648 (UTC) FILETIME=[57168880:01C0DE48] Dear List, I've been working on a presentation and I would highly appreciate any input from you. The subject is "The History of Wilderness Medicine". I would like to talk about wilderness medicine at large but topics such as mountain medicine, winter medicine, environmental medicine, travel medicine are the things I plan to mention. Any info that you can pass along about the history and evolution of wilderness medicine in Europe, America and other parts of the world will be appreciated. Any books that you suggest, literature, printed material and maybe even Powerpoint presentaions that you'd like to share will do good. I'd especially like to hear from European members! Many thanks in advance. Gurkan Ozel Ankara, TURKEY _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3LOTJUHVC0119YR@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:14:22 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.33]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from page (ts6-11.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.112.114]) by mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA05927 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:14:02 -0400 (EDT) From: John Page Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-Sender: page.95@pop.service.ohio-state.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <200105152214.SAA05927@mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Suzanne - You wrote: See bottom for reply At 05:38 PM 5/15/01 -0400, you wrote: >Good point. My only guess would be that it helps to up or down regulate >some enzymes in your body. That's just a wild guess though. > >Suzanne Atkinson > > >> >> >ginkgo is not stock piled by your body - once fully digested it >> >is of little value 3 hours after taking it... >> >> I am a bit puzzeled by this. If this stuff is quickly digested and of >little value 3 hours after taking it, I don't understand why taking it for 5 >days prior to ascent is likely to be useful. Can you shed some light on >that question? > Good point as well - Your body takes a little while getting used to how to best use gingko - hence the waist percent of it prior to having taken it for a few days is overly large. candidly your body DOES store a bit - but so little - that without sufficient time to accumulate it one sees no benifits for the first 3-5 days at best... John Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3LNAUXXU2004PXY@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:31:03 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snickers ("port 1167"@[136.142.21.93]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with SMTP id <01K3LNAF20WG004I14@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:38:18 -0400 From: Suzanne Atkinson Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <004801c0dd87$6dbe85e0$0300a8c0@snickers> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <20010515201108.E247512C07@smtp.mxim.com> Good point. My only guess would be that it helps to up or down regulate some enzymes in your body. That's just a wild guess though. Suzanne Atkinson ----- Original Message ----- From: Hal Lillywhite To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:11 PM Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude > > >ginkgo is not stock piled by your body - once fully digested it > >is of little value 3 hours after taking it... > > I am a bit puzzeled by this. If this stuff is quickly digested and of little value 3 hours after taking it, I don't understand why taking it for 5 days prior to ascent is likely to be useful. Can you shed some light on that question? Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3LKJIIUO2004LZS@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:11:44 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.mxim.com ([198.145.56.3]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.mxim.com (huron.mxim.com [172.17.100.121]) by smtp.mxim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E247512C07; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:11:08 -0700 From: Hal Lillywhite Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude In-reply-to: "Your message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:28 EDT." <200105151438.KAA05514@mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: hall@mxim.com Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <20010515201108.E247512C07@smtp.mxim.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk In message <200105151438.KAA05514@mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu>, John Page writes: >Regarding ginkgo biloba an AMS: > >Yes ginkgo is shown to help reduce the incidence severity. > >The following considerations should be noted: > >ginkgo taken prior, during, and after (for 1/2 day +) >elevations the 4,000 m + categories. 5 days + prior is >well recommended!! ... >ginkgo is not stock piled by your body - once fully digested it >is of little value 3 hours after taking it... I am a bit puzzeled by this. If this stuff is quickly digested and of little value 3 hours after taking it, I don't understand why taking it for 5 days prior to ascent is likely to be useful. Can you shed some light on that question? Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3LBBUE4H201157P@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:48:15 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Omikid@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id h.26.155bb223 (3969) for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:47:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Omikid@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <26.155bb223.2832a992@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_26.155bb223.2832a992_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_26.155bb223.2832a992_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/15/2001 11:14:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aking@wfubmc.edu writes: > "Suzanne- I must have spaced on that site- the high altitude med one, could > you email it to me? > I was shown this site a while back, and have found it very helpful. www.high-altitude-medicine.com is the sight. It is good with lots of info on a variety of topics regarding altitude travel. By the way, there is a link to an article "Dead Man Walking" which is worthwhile to read. I grew up in a third world country, and I find it sad, but true that in many countries human life is considered expendable. > "Anita King, almost MD in 5 days, staring an ED residency in El Paso in July > Congrats to you! Sorry for not Identifying myself the first time round, Take care, Omi the nurse. Naomi J Ishioka BSN, RN --part1_26.155bb223.2832a992_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/15/2001 11:14:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aking@wfubmc.edu writes:


"Suzanne- I must have spaced on that site- the high altitude med one, could
you email it to me?

I was shown this site a while back, and have found it very helpful.  
www.high-altitude-medicine.com is the sight.  It is good with lots of info on
a variety of topics regarding altitude travel.  
By the way, there is a link to an article "Dead Man Walking" which is
worthwhile to read.  I grew up in a third world country, and I find it sad,
but true that in many countries human life is considered expendable.

"Anita King, almost MD in 5 days, staring an ED residency in El Paso in July

Congrats to you!

Sorry for not Identifying myself the first time round,

Take care,
Omi the nurse.

Naomi J Ishioka BSN, RN --part1_26.155bb223.2832a992_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3L9RTH8AO01157P@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:03:51 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.wfubmc.edu ([152.11.200.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail ([152.11.200.5]) by mail.wfubmc.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with SMTP id AAA28D2 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:04:24 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:04:24 -0400 From: aking@wfubmc.edu (Anita King) Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <77459F7B1A8.AAA28D2@mail.wfubmc.edu> X-Mailer: Netscape Messenger Express 3.5.2 [Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win95; I)] Precedence: bulk Suzanne- I must have spaced on that site- the high altitude med one, could you email it to me? Anita King, almost MD in 5 days, staring an ED residency in El Paso in July Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3L8WTAVMG0128PZ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:52 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.31]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from page (ts8-7.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.112.142]) by mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05514 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:38:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John Page Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-Sender: page.95@pop.service.ohio-state.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <200105151438.KAA05514@mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Regarding ginkgo biloba an AMS: Yes ginkgo is shown to help reduce the incidence severity. The following considerations should be noted: ginkgo taken prior, during, and after (for 1/2 day +) elevations the 4,000 m + categories. 5 days + prior is well recommended!! ginkgo levels of 120 mg per day I find insufficient. 600-800 mg is the standard daily dose for individuals with brain injuries, and they are only taking such during waking hours - yet higher altitudes affect the individual 24 hours a day... ginkgo is not stock piled by your body - once fully digested it is of little value 3 hours after taking it - hence taking partial doses spread over a days time - and taken regularly!! - will help. Suggest @ 1-2 hours. (a helpful nuisance) Caution needs to be used as some individuals may attempt to climb higher than the prescribed rate due to feeling a bit up to it - IF done so and taking 600 mg + daily one's body is also quicker to respond to overdoing it - hence once you pass the altitude adjustments rates event the ginkgo can help you with you may well find your limit and hit the wall fast and hard risking a deep AMS reaction at higher than desired elevations... ginkgo has no negative side effects that I have ever heard of. I have taken ginkgo (at the 1,440 mg level @ 24 hrs. - 120 mg @ hour @ 12 hours @ day) for over a year due to a brain injury accident and found any dose less than 800 mg spaced over a day non significantly effective. (fall in 1993 - broke 10 bones including the skull - coma for weeks - in hospital 7 months...) (ginkgo was suggested - with prescription things stronger later - without dropping ginkgo - at 800 mg + while awake). The 120 mg type dose of ginkgo commonly referred to we must assume is of the OTC (over the counter) type. Such ginkgo doses are easy to find - one does need to ensure that the amount of ginkgo in the 120 mg dose is a minimum of 24% ginkgoflovoronglycosides. 1,200 mg level is the level needed to match prescription level doses commonly found. John Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3L7IH47PY004I14@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:59:03 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snickers ("port 1040"@[136.142.23.48]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with SMTP id <01K3L7HTE9GQ004I8B@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:06:08 -0400 From: Suzanne Atkinson Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <009201c0dd48$42b33b00$0300a8c0@snickers> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <20010514221936.972E312C26@smtp.mxim.com> Hal, Visit the high altitude medicien site that someone else sent out. It is a wonderful collection of resources that will explaiin LLS, I'm not sure about the ESQ-III though. Suzanne Atkinson WEMT MS-III Pitt SOM ----- Original Message ----- From: Hal Lillywhite To: Cc: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:19 PM Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude > > For those as ignorant as myself, could you describe the ESQ-III (short form) > and Lake Louise Score (LLS) tests please? > > In message <3AFFCA73.F0D10621@rmi.net>, Buck Tilton writes: > > To determine effectiveness of prophylactic ginkgo biloba on incidence > >and severity of AMS during rapid ascent. > >Design: Double-blind, placebo-controlled cohort study. The two groups were > >matched for age, gender and rate of ascent. > >Subjects: Forty college students residing at 1400 m (4,597 ft.). > >Intervention: Subjects received either ginkgo biloba 120 mg orally or placebo > >twice a day, starting five days prior to ascent of Pike's Peak (2 hours by > vehi > >cle > >to 4300 m [14,110 ft.]) and continued while at elevation overnight. > >Primary Outcome Measures: ESQ-III (short form) and Lake Louise Score (LLS) > >completed before ascent and at altitude, either 24 hours after ascent or when > >removed from the study because of symptoms. Both ESQ > O.7 and LLS > 3 were > >required for AMS. > >Results: Ginkgo reduced incidence of AMS (7 of 21 with AMS vs. 13 of 19 with > >AMS, > >ginkgo vs. placebo, p< 0.02). Ginkgo also reduced severity of AMS by both scor > >es > >(mean ESQ = 0.77 + 0.20 vs. 1.59 + 0.32, ginkgo vs. placebo, p = 0.03; mean LL > >S = > >3.9 + 0.6 vs. 6.2 + 0.9, p < 0.05). SaO2 was inversely correlated with severi > >ty > >of AMS; age, gender, and hematocrit did not relate to AMS. > >Conclusion: Ginkgo biloba taken five days prior to rapid ascent to 4300 m red > >uced > >both incidence and severity of AMS. > >Speculation: Ginkgo biloba inhibits inducible nitric-oxide synthase (iNOS) an > >d > >also scavenges oxygen radicals; one of these actions might explain its > >effectiveness in preventing AMS. > > > > > >Jel Coward wrote: > > > >> Hi all > >> > >> Anyone know of any further developments with Ginkgo biloba for > >> prevention of altitude disorders? > >> > >> I ask because a teacher friend is taking a group of 15 and 16 year olds > >> up Mt Kenya and the company running it have told them to get > >> acetazolamide from their doctors (I am not sure that this is necessary - > >> the ascent will be very slow with some other acclimatization beforehand > >> - and I am not sure how they will get on as non-medics looking after > >> children with diamox side effects) > >> > >> Any thoughts? > >> > >> Cheers > >> -- > >> Jel Coward > >> > >> The UK Wilderness Emergency Medical Technician and Command Physician course > > is > >> on 4-10th November 2001 at Glenmore Lodge in Scotland > >> > >> http://www.wildmedic.org > >> http://www.wemsi.org > >> > >> jel@wildmedic.org > >> > >> 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" > >> Anon Norwegian > >> Do not reproduce without author's express permission. > >> To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" > >> as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu > >> Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > > >-- > >************************ > >Buck Tilton > >Wilderness Medicine Institute of NOLS > >P. O. Box 9 > >Pitkin, CO 81241 > >Phone 970-641-3572 > >Fax 970-641-0882 > >buck_tilton@nols.edu > > > > > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. > >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" > >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu > >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > > > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. > To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" > as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu > Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3KBUYLK62011VTL@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:52:52 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.doctors.org.uk (mail.doctors.org.uk [212.35.225.25]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from currantbun.com (5300-tele-1-cluster.42.ip-pool.cix.co.uk [194.153.22.42]) by mail.doctors.org.uk (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4EMq4F08561 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 23:52:04 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:50:46 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude In-reply-to: <3AFFCA73.F0D10621@rmi.net> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk X-Envelope-From: jel@wildmedic.org References: <3AFFCA73.F0D10621@rmi.net> In article <3AFFCA73.F0D10621@rmi.net>, Buck Tilton writes >I found this on the web. > >Ginkgo biloba reduces incidence and severity of acute mountain sickness. >Kirsten Maakestad, MD, Gig Leadbetter, PhD, Sheryl Olson, RN and Peter Hackett, >MD Thanks - do you know whether the preparation they used is or will be available? TIA Cheers -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org http://www.wemsi.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3KAQM3BSO004O0M@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:20:20 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.mxim.com ([198.145.56.3]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.mxim.com (huron.mxim.com [172.17.100.121]) by smtp.mxim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972E312C26; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:19:36 -0700 From: Hal Lillywhite Subject: Re: W-EMED Ginkgo biloba - altitude In-reply-to: "Your message of Mon, 14 May 2001 06:07:16 MDT." <3AFFCA73.F0D10621@rmi.net> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: hall@mxim.com Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <20010514221936.972E312C26@smtp.mxim.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu id SAA23290 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk For those as ignorant as myself, could you describe the ESQ-III (short form) and Lake Louise Score (LLS) tests please? In message <3AFFCA73.F0D10621@rmi.net>, Buck Tilton writes: > To determine effectiveness of prophylactic ginkgo biloba on incidence >and severity of AMS during rapid ascent. >Design: Double-blind, placebo-controlled cohort study. The two groups were >matched for age, gender and rate of ascent. >Subjects: Forty college students residing at 1400 m (4,597 ft.). >Intervention: Subjects received either ginkgo biloba 120 mg orally or placebo >twice a day, starting five days prior to ascent of Pike’s Peak (2 hours by vehi >cle >to 4300 m [14,110 ft.]) and continued while at elevation overnight. >Primary Outcome Measures: ESQ-III (short form) and Lake Louise Score (LLS) >completed before ascent and at altitude, either 24 hours after ascent or when >removed from the study because of symptoms. Both ESQ > O.7 and LLS > 3 were >required for AMS. >Results: Ginkgo reduced incidence of AMS (7 of 21 with AMS vs. 13 of 19 with >AMS, >ginkgo vs. placebo, p< 0.02). Ginkgo also reduced severity of AMS by both scor >es >(mean ESQ = 0.77 + 0.20 vs. 1.59 + 0.32, ginkgo vs. placebo, p = 0.03; mean LL >S = >3.9 + 0.6 vs. 6.2 + 0.9, p < 0.05). SaO2 was inversely correlated with severi >ty >of AMS; age, gender, and hematocrit did not relate to AMS. >Conclusion: Ginkgo biloba taken five days prior to rapid ascent to 4300 m red >uced >both incidence and severity of AMS. >Speculation: Ginkgo biloba inhibits inducible nitric-oxide synthase (iNOS) an >d >also scavenges oxygen radicals; one of these actions might explain its >effectiveness in preventing AMS. > > >Jel Coward wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Anyone know of any further developments with Ginkgo biloba for >> prevention of altitude disorders? >> >> I ask because a teacher friend is taking a group of 15 and 16 year olds >> up Mt Kenya and the company running it have told them to get >> acetazolamide from their doctors (I am not sure that this is necessary - >> the ascent will be very slow with some other acclimatization beforehand >> - and I am not sure how they will get on as non-medics looking after >> children with diamox side effects) >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Cheers >> -- >> Jel Coward >> >> The UK Wilderness Emergency Medical Technician and Command Physician course > is >> on 4-10th November 2001 at Glenmore Lodge in Scotland >> >> http://www.wildmedic.org >> http://www.wemsi.org >> >> jel@wildmedic.org >> >> 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" >> Anon Norwegian >> Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >> To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >> as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >> Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > >-- >************************ >Buck Tilton >Wilderness Medicine Institute of NOLS >P. O. Box 9 >Pitkin, CO 81241 >Phone 970-641-3572 >Fax 970-641-0882 >buck_tilton@nols.edu > > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3JPGMXP7C011PI3@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:11:23 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 08:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.93.10.70] (HELO rmi.net) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 43481882 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:11:12 -0600 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:09:43 -0600 From: Buck Tilton Subject: W-EMED correspondence courses Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3AFFCB07.A7263100@rmi.net> Organization: Wilderness Medicine Institute MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en References: Has anyone heard about correspondence courses in wilderness medicine and/or SAR? I have friends in India are having