Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KC4TRZBHBK0079YO@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:49:50 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2 (smtp2.turk.net [212.57.15.19]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from s9u8q3 (unverified [213.153.216.104]) by smtp2 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:52:14 +0200 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:33:16 +0200 From: Tolga Kanik Subject: W-EMED David Fasulo Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <000601c18a59$68a8cd20$68d899d5@s9u8q3> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Is there anyone who knows the e-mail adress of David J. Fasulo who is the author of the Book called "Self Rescue" ? Nothing is written in the book and my search efforts have ended up with failure through the web. As far as I know, he is also an EMT, and may be (hopefully) a member of this community? : ) Thanks Tolga Kanik, WFR Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KBTGFO2LQS0074YS@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:28:34 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.lightlink.com (mx.lightlink.com [205.232.34.15]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from RoadWeb.InternetSmiths.com ([65.213.99.254]) by mx.lightlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23660 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:26:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:15:03 -0500 From: Nigel Dyson-Hudson Subject: W-EMED try these links Re: [TheNRO] cavers first aid kits Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-Sender: (Unverified) To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213110736.02912470@pop3.lightlink.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Look at www.wemsi.org for a list of first aid kits. Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP has a web site at http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Also try some of the other e-mail lists. wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu - Wilderness Emergency Medicine erncrc@yahoogroups.com - Eastern Region National Cave Rescue Commission self_rescue@egroups.com - Self Rescue and Small Group Rescue caverescue@coollist.com - International Cave Rescue mailing list nigel (already posted as reply on thenro@smartgroups.com) At 01:39 AM 12/13/2001 +0000, speleo1@hotmail.com wrote: >I am trying to gather info on the perfect caving first aid kit and I need >tips, tricks, ingredients, packaging ideas, etc. > >I am working on developing > > group kits > expedition kits > personal kits > ultralight kits > >Any ideas you have would be a great help. > >Brien Chartier >speleo1@hotmail.com > >If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a questionnaire >visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/thenro > >To leave the group, email: thenro-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com nigel dyson-hudson "mad dogs and Englishmen" and I am both! ndh@CaveSAR.com CaveSAR: Scouting & Rock Eating (digging); Survey & Research; Search & Rescue. National Speleological Society: 21042 life; National Cave Rescue Comission Level 2, Team Leader; Initial Cave Incident Response Management (66hr ICS) Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KAWN2TP7BG001JLD@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:42:54 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from supercable.net.ve ([216.72.155.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (apparently) from sceptre ([216.72.126.61]) by supercable.net.ve with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.647.64); Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:53:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 00:33:18 -0400 From: Dr Manuel Sotelo Subject: Re: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <052101c1717c$ddbe3c80$3d7e48d8@supercable.net.ve> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: 3 drops of household bleach per liter of transparent water. Wait for 20 minutes before drinking Manuel Sotelo MD Venezuela At one time I ran across an WHO recommendation for sanitizing water in underdeveloped countries using household bleach, but I can't seem to lay my hands on it. Anyone familiar with this? Paul Erickson, MD Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KAGQ9CXGLM004C77@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:21:01 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 14:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f15.pav0.hotmail.com [64.4.33.86]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 14:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 11:18:05 -0800 Received: from 206.20.228.193 by pv0fd.pav0.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 19:18:05 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 19:18:05 +0000 From: Rob curran Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT Upgrade Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [206.20.228.193] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Nov 2001 19:18:05.0962 (UTC) FILETIME=[17F25EA0:01C1688A] ok...second question...is there a standard curriculum..i have been looking and i believe some courses include intubation, shoulder dislocatio reduction, iv, and some do not. >From: Tony Canike >Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu >To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu >Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT Upgrade >Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:02:38 -0500 > >Try SOLO in New Hampshire. They have a week-long course to do what you >want. I haven't taken it personally, but due to recommendations I have >received about SOLO I am taking their full WEMT course (4 weeks) starting >soon. > >www.soloschools.com > >At 12:19 AM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote: >>I'm looking for an upgrade course from EMT to WEMT. Prefer November or >>December. Any ideas? >> >>thanks >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >> >>Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >>To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >>as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >>Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KAF1OLSCCQ00TY1X@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:27:04 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtjps01.jpshealthnetwork.org ([206.201.80.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by SMTJPS01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:26:14 -0600 Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:25:41 -0600 From: "Erickson, Paul" Subject: RE: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: "'wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu'" Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk thanks. Paul Erickson, MD -----Original Message----- From: Hal Lillywhite [mailto:hall@mail.mxim.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 3:19 PM To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach In message <11e.6f6dfcf.29199727@aol.com>, Omikid@aol.com writes: > >--part1_11e.6f6dfcf.29199727_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >This is from the Arkansas Emergency Preparedness site >http://quake.ualr.edu/schools/guide/section5i.htm >> Bleach Purification: >> >> Liquid household bleach can be used. It must contain hypochlorite, >>> preferably 5.25%. Add according to table below then stir and mix. One serious warning: Be *certain* this is plain bleach, no scented stuff etc. Some of the stuff they use to make it smell pretty is not necessarily good to drink and could mask the odor, causing you to add excessive quantities of bleach. Also, chlorine is a good disinfectant in clean water of the right pH. However it is not as effective as iodine in dirty water or water with the wrong pH (I don't remember if it is acidic or basic which causes problems). For that reason I prefer iodine for uncontrolled sources except for people who have iodine allergies. Municipal water systems usually filter the water to remove most of the junk, and they control the pH so chlorine works well for them. Most people seeking wilderness or emergency water can't do that. >Amount of Water Clear Water Cloudy Water >1 quart 2 drops 4 drops >1 gallon 8 drops 16 drops >5 gallons 1tsp 2 tsp >Also check out this site: Drinking Water Safety in Emergencies >http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/nutrition/BJ646.html > >Chemical treatment: >Any of the following three (3) chemical treatments will purify water. > >Chlorine bleach. Household bleach is a good disinfectant for water. Before >using, check the label to be sure hypochlorite is the only active ingredient. >Do not use bleach that contains soap. The amount of chlorine in bleach >bottles is variable. The following table states the amount of product needed >to purify water. Percent > >chlorine Add per gallon water > >1% 40 drops >2 to 6% 8 drops >7 to 10% 4 drops >unknown 10 drops Obvious typos here. Maybe you could post a correction. >Mix the bleach thoroughly in the water and let it stand for 30 minutes. The >water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn't, repeat the dose and >let the water stand for an additional 15 minutes. >Iodine. Household iodine from the medicine cabinet purifies water. The iodine >should be 2% United States Pharmacopeia (U.S.P.) strength. Add 20 drops per >gallon of clear water or 40 drops per gallon of cloudy water. By "household iodine" I suspect they mean tincture of iodine, a mixture which should not be in the household or anywhere else. Iodine-povodine is a much better antiseptic. Since there is no reason to have tincture of iodine around, it would be better to give directions for other iodine substances. Better yet, use iodine based tablets or something like Polar-Pure (registered trademark). >Water purification tablets. Tablets are available at drug stores. Follow the >manufacturers' instructions. Most of these nowadays are iodine based but there are still some around based on chlorine. See above for why I think iodine based is better. >Stored Water: >Boiled water, stored in sterilized containers keeps for six months to one >year. Water stores much better if it can be kept in darkness. Light allows algae to grow and provide a food source for other microbes. In fact if water is kept in total darkness it should keep indefinitely. > While the water may taste flat, it is safe to drink or use in cooking. >Your hot water heater or water pressure tank could supply many gallons of >safe water. Before using water from the water heater, switch off the gas or >electricity, which heats the water. Leaving the power on while the heater is >empty could cause an explosion or burn out the elements. After turning off >the power source, open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank. Do not turn >the water heater on until the water system is back in service. For more >information, contact your Extension office. Also, after turning off the gas or electricity to the heater, open a hot water faucet somewhere in the home. That will allow air into the top of the water tank. If you don't do that you will essentially cause a vacuum which will allow very little water out of the faucet on the tank. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KAF1B7NTV000TGT8@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:16:16 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtjps01.jpshealthnetwork.org ([206.201.80.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by SMTJPS01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:15:12 -0600 Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 08:14:39 -0600 From: "Erickson, Paul" Subject: RE: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: "'wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu'" Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C16796.8980CEC0" Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C16796.8980CEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Paul Erickson, MD -----Original Message----- From: Omikid@aol.com [mailto:Omikid@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:43 PM To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach This is from the Arkansas Emergency Preparedness site http://quake.ualr.edu/schools/guide/section5i.htm Bleach Purification: Liquid household bleach can be used. It must contain hypochlorite, preferably 5.25%. Add according to table below then stir and mix. Amount of Water Clear Water Cloudy Water 1 quart 2 drops 4 drops 1 gallon 8 drops 16 drops 5 gallons 1tsp 2 tsp Also check out this site: Drinking Water Safety in Emergencies http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/nutrition/BJ646.html Chemical treatment: Any of the following three (3) chemical treatments will purify water. Chlorine bleach. Household bleach is a good disinfectant for water. Before using, check the label to be sure hypochlorite is the only active ingredient. Do not use bleach that contains soap. The amount of chlorine in bleach bottles is variable. The following table states the amount of product needed to purify water. Percent chlorine Add per gallon water 1% 40 drops 2 to 6% 8 drops 7 to 10% 4 drops unknown 10 drops Mix the bleach thoroughly in the water and let it stand for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn't, repeat the dose and let the water stand for an additional 15 minutes. Iodine. Household iodine from the medicine cabinet purifies water. The iodine should be 2% United States Pharmacopeia (U.S.P.) strength. Add 20 drops per gallon of clear water or 40 drops per gallon of cloudy water. Water purification tablets. Tablets are available at drug stores. Follow the manufacturers' instructions. Stored Water: Boiled water, stored in sterilized containers keeps for six months to one year. While the water may taste flat, it is safe to drink or use in cooking. Your hot water heater or water pressure tank could supply many gallons of safe water. Before using water from the water heater, switch off the gas or electricity, which heats the water. Leaving the power on while the heater is empty could cause an explosion or burn out the elements. After turning off the power source, open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank. Do not turn the water heater on until the water system is back in service. For more information, contact your Extension office. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C16796.8980CEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks
 
 

Paul Erickson, MD

-----Original Message-----
From: Omikid@aol.com [mailto:Omikid@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:43 PM
To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach

This is from the Arkansas Emergency Preparedness site http://quake.ualr.edu/schools/guide/section5i.htm

Bleach Purification:


Liquid household bleach can be used. It must contain hypochlorite, preferably 5.25%. Add according to table below then stir and mix.




Amount of Water Clear Water Cloudy Water
1 quart  2 drops 4 drops
1 gallon        8 drops       16 drops
5 gallons 1tsp   2 tsp

Also check out this site:   Drinking Water Safety in Emergencies  http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/nutrition/BJ646.html

Chemical treatment:
Any of the following three (3) chemical treatments will purify water.

Chlorine bleach. Household bleach is a good disinfectant for water. Before using, check the label to be sure hypochlorite is the only active ingredient. Do not use bleach that contains soap. The amount of chlorine in bleach bottles is variable. The following table states the amount of product needed to purify water. Percent

chlorine Add per gallon water

1% 40 drops
2 to 6% 8 drops
7 to 10% 4 drops
unknown 10 drops

Mix the bleach thoroughly in the water and let it stand for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn't, repeat the dose and let the water stand for an additional 15 minutes.

Iodine. Household iodine from the medicine cabinet purifies water. The iodine should be 2% United States Pharmacopeia (U.S.P.) strength. Add 20 drops per gallon of clear water or 40 drops per gallon of cloudy water.

Water purification tablets. Tablets are available at drug stores. Follow the manufacturers' instructions.

Stored Water:
Boiled water, stored in sterilized containers keeps for six months to one year. While the water may taste flat, it is safe to drink or use in cooking. Your hot water heater or water pressure tank could supply many gallons of safe water. Before using water from the water heater, switch off the gas or electricity, which heats the water. Leaving the power on while the heater is empty could cause an explosion or burn out the elements. After turning off the power source, open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank. Do not turn the water heater on until the water system is back in service. For more information, contact your Extension office.










------_=_NextPart_001_01C16796.8980CEC0-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 06:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KAEUPFAA5M004F5W@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 06:06:54 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from 208-59-96-139.s139.apx1.trpr.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.59.96.139] helo=daisy.erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #10) id 161QWn-0003Zx-00 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:05:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 06:02:38 -0500 From: Tony Canike Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT Upgrade In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-Sender: canike@pop.erols.com To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011107060025.02472680@pop.erols.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Try SOLO in New Hampshire. They have a week-long course to do what you want. I haven't taken it personally, but due to recommendations I have received about SOLO I am taking their full WEMT course (4 weeks) starting soon. www.soloschools.com At 12:19 AM 11/6/01 +0000, you wrote: >I'm looking for an upgrade course from EMT to WEMT. Prefer November or >December. Any ideas? > >thanks > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KAE1SRRKJS00U2OG@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:19:38 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mxim.com ([198.145.56.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.mxim.com (mail.mxim.com [172.17.100.3]) by smtp1.mxim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA3450303 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mxim.com (huron.mxim.com [172.17.100.121]) by mail.mxim.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291018633 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:19:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:19:11 -0800 From: Hal Lillywhite Subject: Re: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach In-reply-to: "Your message of Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:42:31 EST." <11e.6f6dfcf.29199727@aol.com> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <20011106211912.291018633@mail.mxim.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk In message <11e.6f6dfcf.29199727@aol.com>, Omikid@aol.com writes: > >--part1_11e.6f6dfcf.29199727_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >This is from the Arkansas Emergency Preparedness site >http://quake.ualr.edu/schools/guide/section5i.htm >> Bleach Purification: >> >> Liquid household bleach can be used. It must contain hypochlorite, >>> preferably 5.25%. Add according to table below then stir and mix. One serious warning: Be *certain* this is plain bleach, no scented stuff etc. Some of the stuff they use to make it smell pretty is not necessarily good to drink and could mask the odor, causing you to add excessive quantities of bleach. Also, chlorine is a good disinfectant in clean water of the right pH. However it is not as effective as iodine in dirty water or water with the wrong pH (I don't remember if it is acidic or basic which causes problems). For that reason I prefer iodine for uncontrolled sources except for people who have iodine allergies. Municipal water systems usually filter the water to remove most of the junk, and they control the pH so chlorine works well for them. Most people seeking wilderness or emergency water can't do that. >Amount of Water Clear Water Cloudy Water >1 quart 2 drops 4 drops >1 gallon 8 drops 16 drops >5 gallons 1tsp 2 tsp >Also check out this site: Drinking Water Safety in Emergencies >http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/nutrition/BJ646.html > >Chemical treatment: >Any of the following three (3) chemical treatments will purify water. > >Chlorine bleach. Household bleach is a good disinfectant for water. Before >using, check the label to be sure hypochlorite is the only active ingredient. >Do not use bleach that contains soap. The amount of chlorine in bleach >bottles is variable. The following table states the amount of product needed >to purify water. Percent > >chlorine Add per gallon water > >1% 40 drops >2 to 6% 8 drops >7 to 10% 4 drops >unknown 10 drops Obvious typos here. Maybe you could post a correction. >Mix the bleach thoroughly in the water and let it stand for 30 minutes. The >water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn't, repeat the dose and >let the water stand for an additional 15 minutes. >Iodine. Household iodine from the medicine cabinet purifies water. The iodine >should be 2% United States Pharmacopeia (U.S.P.) strength. Add 20 drops per >gallon of clear water or 40 drops per gallon of cloudy water. By "household iodine" I suspect they mean tincture of iodine, a mixture which should not be in the household or anywhere else. Iodine-povodine is a much better antiseptic. Since there is no reason to have tincture of iodine around, it would be better to give directions for other iodine substances. Better yet, use iodine based tablets or something like Polar-Pure (registered trademark). >Water purification tablets. Tablets are available at drug stores. Follow the >manufacturers' instructions. Most of these nowadays are iodine based but there are still some around based on chlorine. See above for why I think iodine based is better. >Stored Water: >Boiled water, stored in sterilized containers keeps for six months to one >year. Water stores much better if it can be kept in darkness. Light allows algae to grow and provide a food source for other microbes. In fact if water is kept in total darkness it should keep indefinitely. > While the water may taste flat, it is safe to drink or use in cooking. >Your hot water heater or water pressure tank could supply many gallons of >safe water. Before using water from the water heater, switch off the gas or >electricity, which heats the water. Leaving the power on while the heater is >empty could cause an explosion or burn out the elements. After turning off >the power source, open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank. Do not turn >the water heater on until the water system is back in service. For more >information, contact your Extension office. Also, after turning off the gas or electricity to the heater, open a hot water faucet somewhere in the home. That will allow air into the top of the water tank. If you don't do that you will essentially cause a vacuum which will allow very little water out of the faucet on the tank. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KADYGJGA2K00TJOC@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:43:29 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from Omikid@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id h.11e.6f6dfcf (30961) for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:42:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: Omikid@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <11e.6f6dfcf.29199727@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_11e.6f6dfcf.29199727_boundary" Precedence: bulk --part1_11e.6f6dfcf.29199727_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is from the Arkansas Emergency Preparedness site http://quake.ualr.edu/schools/guide/section5i.htm > Bleach Purification: > > > >> Liquid household bleach can be used. It must contain hypochlorite, >> preferably 5.25%. Add according to table below then stir and mix. >> >> > Amount of Water Clear Water Cloudy Water 1 quart 2 drops 4 drops 1 gallon 8 drops 16 drops 5 gallons 1tsp 2 tsp Also check out this site: Drinking Water Safety in Emergencies http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/nutrition/BJ646.html Chemical treatment: Any of the following three (3) chemical treatments will purify water. Chlorine bleach. Household bleach is a good disinfectant for water. Before using, check the label to be sure hypochlorite is the only active ingredient. Do not use bleach that contains soap. The amount of chlorine in bleach bottles is variable. The following table states the amount of product needed to purify water. Percent chlorine Add per gallon water 1% 40 drops 2 to 6% 8 drops 7 to 10% 4 drops unknown 10 drops Mix the bleach thoroughly in the water and let it stand for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn't, repeat the dose and let the water stand for an additional 15 minutes. Iodine. Household iodine from the medicine cabinet purifies water. The iodine should be 2% United States Pharmacopeia (U.S.P.) strength. Add 20 drops per gallon of clear water or 40 drops per gallon of cloudy water. Water purification tablets. Tablets are available at drug stores. Follow the manufacturers' instructions. Stored Water: Boiled water, stored in sterilized containers keeps for six months to one year. While the water may taste flat, it is safe to drink or use in cooking. Your hot water heater or water pressure tank could supply many gallons of safe water. Before using water from the water heater, switch off the gas or electricity, which heats the water. Leaving the power on while the heater is empty could cause an explosion or burn out the elements. After turning off the power source, open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank. Do not turn the water heater on until the water system is back in service. For more information, contact your Extension office. > > --part1_11e.6f6dfcf.29199727_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is from the Arkansas Emergency Preparedness site http://quake.ualr.edu/schools/guide/section5i.htm

Bleach Purification:


Liquid household bleach can be used. It must contain hypochlorite, preferably 5.25%. Add according to table below then stir and mix.




Amount of Water Clear Water Cloudy Water
1 quart  2 drops 4 drops
1 gallon        8 drops       16 drops
5 gallons 1tsp   2 tsp

Also check out this site:   Drinking Water Safety in Emergencies  http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/nutrition/BJ646.html

Chemical treatment:
Any of the following three (3) chemical treatments will purify water.

Chlorine bleach. Household bleach is a good disinfectant for water. Before using, check the label to be sure hypochlorite is the only active ingredient. Do not use bleach that contains soap. The amount of chlorine in bleach bottles is variable. The following table states the amount of product needed to purify water. Percent

chlorine Add per gallon water

1% 40 drops
2 to 6% 8 drops
7 to 10% 4 drops
unknown 10 drops

Mix the bleach thoroughly in the water and let it stand for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If it doesn't, repeat the dose and let the water stand for an additional 15 minutes.

Iodine. Household iodine from the medicine cabinet purifies water. The iodine should be 2% United States Pharmacopeia (U.S.P.) strength. Add 20 drops per gallon of clear water or 40 drops per gallon of cloudy water.

Water purification tablets. Tablets are available at drug stores. Follow the manufacturers' instructions.

Stored Water:
Boiled water, stored in sterilized containers keeps for six months to one year. While the water may taste flat, it is safe to drink or use in cooking. Your hot water heater or water pressure tank could supply many gallons of safe water. Before using water from the water heater, switch off the gas or electricity, which heats the water. Leaving the power on while the heater is empty could cause an explosion or burn out the elements. After turning off the power source, open the drain valve at the bottom of the tank. Do not turn the water heater on until the water system is back in service. For more information, contact your Extension office.










--part1_11e.6f6dfcf.29199727_boundary-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KADX2T76NY00T3WM@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:04:10 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtjps01.jpshealthnetwork.org ([206.201.80.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by SMTJPS01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:03:05 -0600 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:02:31 -0600 From: "Erickson, Paul" Subject: W-EMED sanitizing water using bleach Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk At one time I ran across an WHO recommendation for sanitizing water in underdeveloped countries using household bleach, but I can't seem to lay my hands on it. Anyone familiar with this? Paul Erickson, MD Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KACTVAJHTO00TXSJ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:21:49 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 19:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f7.pav0.hotmail.com [64.4.33.7]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 19:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 16:19:51 -0800 Received: from 206.20.228.193 by pv0fd.pav0.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 00:19:51 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 00:19:51 +0000 From: Rob curran Subject: W-EMED WEMT Upgrade Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [206.20.228.193] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2001 00:19:51.0636 (UTC) FILETIME=[C087B940:01C16658] I'm looking for an upgrade course from EMT to WEMT. Prefer November or December. Any ideas? thanks _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net ("port 36591"@[209.228.32.122]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with SMTP id <01K9YBVH676U00RHS8@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for kconover@imap.pitt.edu (ORCPT rfc822;kconover@pitt.edu); Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:15:29 EST Received: (cpmta 2123 invoked from network); Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:14:53 -0700 Received: from 4.54.3.34 (HELO mshear2000) by smtp.massmed.org (209.228.32.122) with SMTP; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:14:53 -0700 Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:15:23 -0400 From: Michael Shear Subject: RE: W-EMED naproxen packaging information In-reply-to: <3BD6F2ED.14809.15EE803@localhost> To: kconover@pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Sent: 26 Oct 2001 14:14:53 GMT Keith - Hello. I'm an ED physician who follows this listserv for fascinating tidbits like the explosive batteries and so on. But I thought I would respond (briefly directly to you since I don't particularly want to provoke an on-line discussion) about OTC analgesics, since this is indeed a commonly misunderstood topic. I whole-heartedly agree with you that there is no compelling evidence supporting NSAID use for "traumatic inflammation", whatever that might be. Indeed, an "inflammatory" response is a normal part of tissue healing. Orthopedists seem totally to have bought into the practice of using NSAIDs for traumatic pain relief, which is too bad, because then internists, GPs, & pediatricians follow their lead. Two compelling disadvantages of NSAIDs are gastrointestinal irritation (they should always be taken with food or milk or something in the stomach) and inhibition of blood clotting, both of which effects they share with aspirin. In fact, the GI irritation has never been shown to be any less hazardous with NSAIDs than with aspirin. For these reasons, my initial analgesic recommendation is almost always acetaminophen (Tylenol), which in equipotent doses (that is, usual standard doses, not necessarily equivalent milligrams, which is a misleading and irrelevant way of comparing drugs) have been shown repeatedly to be equally effective in alleviating pain. For more potent pain relief (for the broken bone or severe sprain) I would suggest wilderness travelers carry with them a modest supply of a narcotic analgesic such as Percocet. Michael Shear > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of > Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:57 PM > To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > Subject: W-EMED naproxen packaging information > > > WEMSI recommends carrying Aleve (the U.S. over-the-counter > brandname for naproxen sodium, known under prescription > tradname of Naprosyn and Anaprox) as a NSAID. > > NSAIDs (non-steroidal antiinflammatory drugs), such as aspirin or > the more potent analgesic ibuprofen, have multiple uses. In large > doses, NSAIDs, over a several week period, will act to decrease > inflammation via certain mechanisms. The NSAID mechanisms are > different than the antiinflammatory effect of steroids, thus the name. > Steriods include cortisone, hydrocortisone, prednisone, > dexamethasone (and many different steroids offered in cream form). > > NSAIDs are used in large doses for inflammatory conditions such > as gout and rheumatoid arthritis. In smaller doses, they also are > about twice as strong as aspirin or acetaminophen (paracetamol), > e.g., Tylenol for pain. Doubling the dose to the gout/rheumatoid > arthritis does NOT increase the pain-alleviating effects, but does > make complications more common: sudden bleeding ulcers, > stomacheache, and in those with diabetes, hypertension and/or > dehydration, kidney failure. > > The usual pain dose of ibuprofen is 200 mg, one or two every four > hours as needed for pain, for a total of about 1200-1400 mg a day. > For naproxen, the usual pain dose is 220 mg, two right away and > then one twice a day as needed for pain. > > Although many, including many deluded or misled doctors, think that > the bigger dose of NSAIDS with help the "inflammation" of a stubbed > toe, a sprained ankle, or a strained back. However, there is no > evidence to support this, and indeed the studies that looked at this > found NO improvement with the "inflammation" of musculoskeletal > trauma with NSAIDs compared to non-NSAID analgesics. (I will > ignore some questionably statistically positive results, which > nonetheless were not really clinically significant, from the use of > NSAID poultices/plasters applied direclty to sprained ankles. These > poultices aren't available in the U.S. or most of Europe, and are too > heavy to carry for backcountry use anyway.) > > We chose naproxen because, although a bit more expensive than > the prototype ibuprofen, it needs to be taken only twice a day > (ibuprofen should be taken every 4-6 hours). And we know how > good you all are at taking medicines four or six times a day (not). > So a twice a day drug seems ideal. > > Now, in the U.S., Aleve (OTC=Over-The-Counter=nonprescription) > is available from Bayer USA in individual blister-packs. Although > more expensive in these little boxes of 8 blister-pack tablets each > than in the bottles, the blister packs are ideal for pack medical kits. > Even if the pills crumble, they are all in the same little > blister and can > be taken as a powder. And each blister has an individual expiration > date on it. > > Bottom line: get some Aleve in the 8-pill blister pack boxes for your > medical bag. See the WEMSI Personal Wilderenss Medical Kit list, > posted at the WEMSI website (http://www.wemsi.org) for more about > what WEMSI recommends. > > (Nobody I know of, including me, has any relationship with Bayer. > They wouldn't even give me Aleve samples when I asked, like > pharmaceutical companies often do to doctors. Sigh.) > > Thank you. > --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP > http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover > sent with Pegasus high-security email > download free from www.pmail.com > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. > To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" > as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu > Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K9VXDJLBO0003B7W@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:58:34 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp002pub.verizon.net (smtp002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.181]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Micron (pool-141-151-144-167.pitt.east.verizon.net [141.151.144.167]) by smtp002pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:57:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:57:16 -0400 From: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" Subject: W-EMED naproxen packaging information Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3BD6F2ED.14809.15EE803@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk WEMSI recommends carrying Aleve (the U.S. over-the-counter brandname for naproxen sodium, known under prescription tradname of Naprosyn and Anaprox) as a NSAID. NSAIDs (non-steroidal antiinflammatory drugs), such as aspirin or the more potent analgesic ibuprofen, have multiple uses. In large doses, NSAIDs, over a several week period, will act to decrease inflammation via certain mechanisms. The NSAID mechanisms are different than the antiinflammatory effect of steroids, thus the name. Steriods include cortisone, hydrocortisone, prednisone, dexamethasone (and many different steroids offered in cream form). NSAIDs are used in large doses for inflammatory conditions such as gout and rheumatoid arthritis. In smaller doses, they also are about twice as strong as aspirin or acetaminophen (paracetamol), e.g., Tylenol for pain. Doubling the dose to the gout/rheumatoid arthritis does NOT increase the pain-alleviating effects, but does make complications more common: sudden bleeding ulcers, stomacheache, and in those with diabetes, hypertension and/or dehydration, kidney failure. The usual pain dose of ibuprofen is 200 mg, one or two every four hours as needed for pain, for a total of about 1200-1400 mg a day. For naproxen, the usual pain dose is 220 mg, two right away and then one twice a day as needed for pain. Although many, including many deluded or misled doctors, think that the bigger dose of NSAIDS with help the "inflammation" of a stubbed toe, a sprained ankle, or a strained back. However, there is no evidence to support this, and indeed the studies that looked at this found NO improvement with the "inflammation" of musculoskeletal trauma with NSAIDs compared to non-NSAID analgesics. (I will ignore some questionably statistically positive results, which nonetheless were not really clinically significant, from the use of NSAID poultices/plasters applied direclty to sprained ankles. These poultices aren't available in the U.S. or most of Europe, and are too heavy to carry for backcountry use anyway.) We chose naproxen because, although a bit more expensive than the prototype ibuprofen, it needs to be taken only twice a day (ibuprofen should be taken every 4-6 hours). And we know how good you all are at taking medicines four or six times a day (not). So a twice a day drug seems ideal. Now, in the U.S., Aleve (OTC=Over-The-Counter=nonprescription) is available from Bayer USA in individual blister-packs. Although more expensive in these little boxes of 8 blister-pack tablets each than in the bottles, the blister packs are ideal for pack medical kits. Even if the pills crumble, they are all in the same little blister and can be taken as a powder. And each blister has an individual expiration date on it. Bottom line: get some Aleve in the 8-pill blister pack boxes for your medical bag. See the WEMSI Personal Wilderenss Medical Kit list, posted at the WEMSI website (http://www.wemsi.org) for more about what WEMSI recommends. (Nobody I know of, including me, has any relationship with Bayer. They wouldn't even give me Aleve samples when I asked, like pharmaceutical companies often do to doctors. Sigh.) Thank you. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K9IXV0OOWY002JRF@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:52:21 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds1.uwinnipeg.ca (ds1.uwinnipeg.ca [142.132.1.37]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uwmta-MTA by ds1.uwinnipeg.ca with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:51:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:51:33 -0500 From: Brad Loewen Subject: Re: W-EMED Adventure Race... Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu id JAA14097 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk A good place to start is the US Adventure Race Association Web site. They have criteria for putting on sanctioned races, including medical. http://www.usara.com/ Brad >>> tasmaniac00@hotmail.com 10/14/01 10:50PM >>> Hi List, I remember reading announcements on list inviting wild.med. trained individuals to take part at Adventure Race organizations accross the US but I couldn't find the emails. I am about to be involved in a large scale organization in Turkey and I'd like to get information about Safety/First Aid issues during such events. How should they be organized? Training of the volunteers? Equipment needed? And the organization of the whole event at large!!! Has anyone on list been worked/volunteered in such an organization before? I can give more specific information about the events being planned in Turkey to interested parties. Many thanks for your input in advance! Gurkan Ozel EMT-B _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K9I2FFDZEO002FRQ@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:51:46 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f128.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.9.128]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:50:03 -0700 Received: from 12.38.103.232 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:50:03 From: Gurkan Ozel Subject: W-EMED Adventure Race... Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [12.38.103.232] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2001 22:50:03.0379 (UTC) FILETIME=[8FCA7430:01C15502] Hi List, I remember reading announcements on list inviting wild.med. trained individuals to take part at Adventure Race organizations accross the US but I couldn't find the emails. I am about to be involved in a large scale organization in Turkey and I'd like to get information about Safety/First Aid issues during such events. How should they be organized? Training of the volunteers? Equipment needed? And the organization of the whole event at large!!! Has anyone on list been worked/volunteered in such an organization before? I can give more specific information about the events being planned in Turkey to interested parties. Many thanks for your input in advance! Gurkan Ozel EMT-B _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K97YMJUP1A001ZY9@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:15:03 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LNMolino@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id h.145.2b89381 (5712) for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web32.aolmail.aol.com (web32.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.8]) by air-id04.mx.aol.com (v81.9) with ESMTP id MAILINID45-1007131409; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:14:09 -0400 Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:14:09 -0400 (EDT) From: LNMolino@aol.com Subject: Re: W-EMED C-spine clearance Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <145.2b89381.28f1e761@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk On this point you might surf www.emsvillage.com. Colleen Hayes one of the site owners has done extensive research on this topic in the development of her home hospitals field clearance protocols and much of the works that she cited in her research are on the site for viewing. Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@aol.com New Jersey, A peninsula trying to become an island The opinions stated here are mine and mine alone. They in no way reflect the opinions of any of the organization (s) that I am in anyway affiliated with. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K97Y4CGEFK00NEOX@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:00:23 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123] helo=wildmedic.org) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15qHHZ-0001bY-0A for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:00:05 +0000 Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:59:45 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: Re: W-EMED C-spine clearance In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <0lkzyLBBoIw7EwRc@wildmedic.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk References: In article , Jel Coward writes >Hi all > >Here in the UK there are rumours of 'spectaculor failure' of c-spine >clearance in Maine - this info is being pedalled quite hard in some >quarters > >Can I ask our American friends whether you have any information about >this, or other c-spine clearance adverse incidents please? > I have now heard from the director of ems and medical director in Maine and they too are not aware of how this rumour was started - I have taken action to try to stop it becoming urban myth here in the uk Cheers -- Jel Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K97WU9G3BA001TRA@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:24:01 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123] helo=wildmedic.org) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15qGhr-0003pw-0U for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:23:11 +0100 Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:22:38 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: Re: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers In-reply-to: <002301c14e91$808af7a0$0200a8c0@jtg> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk References: <000201c14e76$f08c0460$a76bb6cd@morgan> <002301c14e91$808af7a0$0200a8c0@jtg> In article <002301c14e91$808af7a0$0200a8c0@jtg>, JT Grandey writes >You don't need to evacuate it from the bag, just the drip chamber. If you >monitor the fluid delivery and the position of the bag, whatever air there is, >remains in the bag and never reaches the tubing. You change bags out /a they >empty. > Thanks for the input Jack I agree that if the bag is kept upright then that is fine, but not of course if your non-preferred option of putting the bag under the patient is used Morgan wrote: Do you have vented IV tubing? that is the only way i can think of to "Evacuate" the air from the iv bag. Air can be excluded from the bag in one of two ways (there may be more that I am unaware of) - if the bag is inverted and the IV giving set then filled by squeezing the bag, all the air is expelled. Alternatively, most of our bags here in the UK have an injection port and air can be aspirated via this Cheers -- Jel Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K96M62OXQG00NI6J@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:07:23 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imf09bis.bellsouth.net (mail309.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.169]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jtg ([209.215.43.59]) by imf09bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.01.01 201-252-104) with SMTP id <20011006180729.ENOL6728.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@jtg> for ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:07:29 -0400 Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:05:36 -0400 From: JT Grandey Subject: RE: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers In-reply-to: <000201c14e76$f08c0460$a76bb6cd@morgan> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <002301c14e91$808af7a0$0200a8c0@jtg> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu id OAA09717 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk You don't need to evacuate it from the bag, just the drip chamber. If you monitor the fluid delivery and the position of the bag, whatever air there is, remains in the bag and never reaches the tubing. You change bags out /a they empty. JTG -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of Morgan Young Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 10:55 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: RE: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers Do you have vented IV tubing? that is the only way i can think of to "Evacuate" the air from the iv bag. Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 10:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K96FL904UM001QPB@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 10:59:35 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 10:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.positech.net (positech.net [205.182.107.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 10:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from morgan (buffalo087.positech.net [205.182.107.167]) by home.positech.net (8.11.4/8.11.1) with SMTP id f96E1D901372 for ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:01:14 -0500 Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:55:29 -0500 From: Morgan Young Subject: RE: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers In-reply-to: <000d01c14e65$daa822c0$0200a8c0@jtg> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <000201c14e76$f08c0460$a76bb6cd@morgan> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Do you have vented IV tubing? that is the only way i can think of to "Evacuate" the air from the iv bag. -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of JT Grandey Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 07:53 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: RE: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers I had wanted to allow general comments /a adding my $.02. In general, I have never been in favor of placing IV bags underneath the patient for a variety of reasons: 1. uncomfortable for pt. 2. difficult to monitor and/or change 3. possibility of leakage or disconnection I believe a better way to manage IVs enroute is to: 1. set up the desired flow rate using flow adjustment wheel /c gravity feed as normal 2. clamp tubing 3. invert the bag and evacuate all air from the drip chamber 4. open clamp 5. apply a disposable pressure infuser or BP cuff to the IV bag. a. inflate to 200-300 mmHg via gauge b. if using BP cuff, apply Duct tape around cuff to ensure integrity 6. flow rate should remain as established. locate IV bag in protected but accessible location in stretcher 7. monitor regularly for amount infused and add pressure, PRN as bag empties 8. to change bags, clamp tubing, change bags, evacuate air, re-open clamp, repeat step 5. If warmed administration is desired: 1. wrap several (as many as fit) turns of the IV tubing around a hot pack, as proximate to the insertion site as practical. 2. insulate outside of tubing against heat loss 3. locate IV bag in protected but accessible location in stretcher JTG -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of Jel Coward Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 08:22 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers Hi all We often talk about putting an IV bag under a patient to provide warmth to the fluid and pressure for infusion with out needing to use a hanger. My practice is to ensure the exclusion of air from the giving set (IV set) and bag - this can entail aspirating from the bag. Clearly small amounts of air are not a problem but the volume in the double chamber of a blood giving set and the small amount in the bag strikes me as possibly being significant Any thoughts? Cheers -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org http://www.wemsi.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 08:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K96B8MKE7000NJP7@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 08:54:52 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 08:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imf01bis.bellsouth.net (mail301.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.161]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 08:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jtg ([208.60.233.58]) by imf01bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.01.01 201-252-104) with SMTP id <20011006125419.AYB20755.imf01bis.bellsouth.net@jtg> for ; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 08:54:19 -0400 Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 08:53:09 -0400 From: JT Grandey Subject: RE: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers In-reply-to: <7IZgpoAP$Fu7EwTf@wildmedic.org> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <000d01c14e65$daa822c0$0200a8c0@jtg> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu id IAA05287 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk I had wanted to allow general comments /a adding my $.02. In general, I have never been in favor of placing IV bags underneath the patient for a variety of reasons: 1. uncomfortable for pt. 2. difficult to monitor and/or change 3. possibility of leakage or disconnection I believe a better way to manage IVs enroute is to: 1. set up the desired flow rate using flow adjustment wheel /c gravity feed as normal 2. clamp tubing 3. invert the bag and evacuate all air from the drip chamber 4. open clamp 5. apply a disposable pressure infuser or BP cuff to the IV bag. a. inflate to 200-300 mmHg via gauge b. if using BP cuff, apply Duct tape around cuff to ensure integrity 6. flow rate should remain as established. locate IV bag in protected but accessible location in stretcher 7. monitor regularly for amount infused and add pressure, PRN as bag empties 8. to change bags, clamp tubing, change bags, evacuate air, re-open clamp, repeat step 5. If warmed administration is desired: 1. wrap several (as many as fit) turns of the IV tubing around a hot pack, as proximate to the insertion site as practical. 2. insulate outside of tubing against heat loss 3. locate IV bag in protected but accessible location in stretcher JTG -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of Jel Coward Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 08:22 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers Hi all We often talk about putting an IV bag under a patient to provide warmth to the fluid and pressure for infusion with out needing to use a hanger. My practice is to ensure the exclusion of air from the giving set (IV set) and bag - this can entail aspirating from the bag. Clearly small amounts of air are not a problem but the volume in the double chamber of a blood giving set and the small amount in the bag strikes me as possibly being significant Any thoughts? Cheers -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org http://www.wemsi.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K92515LV12001GR6@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:13:53 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123] helo=wildmedic.org) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15olpr-0005vv-0K for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:13:15 +0000 Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:12:07 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: Re: W-EMED Air Embolus In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <79TwE+An6wu7EwgI@wildmedic.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk References: <8PnRIvB1piu7Ewih@wildmedic.org> I have pasted some other responses that I have had from another list. There is 15mls of air in a 1L bag so I guess this could go up to 20 or 25 mls with the air from the giving set chamber. From the NEJM paper (below) and other sources it would seem that this may constitute a significant risk, particularly if there is potential for right to left shunt. Personally I feel that to advise using body weight as a pressure infusing device it is essential to ensure that folk aspirate the air from the bag once the IV giving set has been flooded Cheers there is an article in the NEJM feb 17th 2000 vol 342 number 7 pag 476-482 on gas embolism Hope it helps. The United States FDA thought that 50 ml of air, in HETA-starch packages, was sufficient to cause deaths: http://www.fda.gov/oc/tfrm/AppendixE.html Steve Conrad, in eMedicine Journal, August 16, 2001, states that 3-8 ml/kg of air is sufficient to cause shock or death: http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic787.htm A. Diacon, et al, in Schweiz Schweiz Med Wochenschr 2000;130:1006, reported a near lethal case of venous air embolism after an estimated 150 ml of air. Anil Aggrawal, a forensic pathologist, discusses murder by venous air embolism. He estimates that 200 ml is sufficient: http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/williamson/235/sicd022.html B: Paradoxical air embolism: ---------------------------- If there is an septal defect, a bolus of venous air can pass into the left heart, then to the coronary arteries or carotids, as a lethal arterial air embolism. Remember that 1/4 to 1/3 of us have a patent foramen ovale, allowing such a paradoxical embolism. The NEJM article says that in animals, a large venous bolus (20 ml +) can cause intraarterial bubbles, even if there is no intracardiac defect. C: Arterial Air Embolism: -------------------------- Small amounts of arterial air can be lethal. Chang et al, reported that 2 ml of arterial air caused air embolism in a 7 kg macaque. (Chang C, Dughi J, Shitabata P, Johnson G, Coel M, McNamara J: Air embolism and the radial arterial line. Critical Care Medicine 1988; Vol 16. No 2.) Chilvers, in the Internet Journal of Anaesthesiology, reports of a case of impaired consciousness, from an estimated (?!) 1.6 ml of arterial air: http://www.ispub.com/journals/IJA/Vol3N1/air.html Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K91A69S1R6001DXO@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:29:59 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from taka.swcp.com (taka.swcp.com [198.59.115.12]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inago.swcp.com (inago.swcp.com [198.59.115.17]) by taka.swcp.com (8.10.0.Beta12/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id f92MUtH70697 for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:30:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (tanman@localhost) by inago.swcp.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25792 for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:29:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:29:23 -0600 (MDT) From: TANMAN Subject: W-EMED Air Embolus In-reply-to: <8PnRIvB1piu7Ewih@wildmedic.org> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: inago.swcp.com: tanman owned process doing -bs The problem of air embolus in the text books is getting enough air into the venous system to fill the heart ventricle and thus pump against air and thus stop the flow. In my work as a physician, the worst problem I saw was air entering through the External Jugular, when the line was being changed, and air got in and created an embolus that got stuck in a spinal cord artery, around t-7. It was in a nurse, in the hosital for elective choley. I have seen some air emboli cause minor infarcts in fingers and toes and that is it. I have seen a lot of air go into patients with no problems. When I see air in the IV tubing, I stop the flow, then get a 18 guage needle, stick the needle into the IV port below the air,and let the fluid and air run out on the floor thru the 18 guage needle. Thomas A. Naegele, DO Email Albuquerque, New Mexico __________________________________________________________________ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K9172MUFBW00MNI8@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:01:33 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123] helo=wildmedic.org) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15oWec-000LEy-0K for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:00:39 +0000 Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:58:29 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: Re: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers In-reply-to: <7IZgpoAP$Fu7EwTf@wildmedic.org> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <8PnRIvB1piu7Ewih@wildmedic.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk References: <7IZgpoAP$Fu7EwTf@wildmedic.org> In article <7IZgpoAP$Fu7EwTf@wildmedic.org>, Jel Coward writes >Hi all > >We often talk about putting an IV bag under a patient to provide warmth >to the fluid and pressure for infusion with out needing to use a hanger. >My practice is to ensure the exclusion of air from the giving set (IV >set) and bag - this can entail aspirating from the bag. Clearly small >amounts of air are not a problem but the volume in the double chamber of >a blood giving set and the small amount in the bag strikes me as >possibly being significant > I have just checked the volume of air in a litre bag and it is about 15mls Add to this the air expelled from the giving set when it is filled then I think there may be a significant amount Clearly venous air is less significant than arterial air but one has to wonder about how easy it would be for an air embolus to pass via a patent foramen ovale (a common normal finding) into the left side of the heart and thus produce an arterial embolus There is some info at http://www.belmontinstrument.com/HTML/Newsltr1.htm (keep in mind that this is a commercial site) Any thoughts? Cheers -- Jel Coward The UK Wilderness Emergency Medical Technician and Command Physician course is on 4-10th November 2001 at Glenmore Lodge in Scotland http://www.wildmedic.org http://www.wemsi.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8ZAODK7MG001FA3@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:23:00 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 01 Oct 2001 08:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123] helo=wildmedic.org) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15o252-000FDs-0W for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:21:53 +0100 Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:21:35 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: W-EMED Patients as pressure infusers/fluid warmers Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <7IZgpoAP$Fu7EwTf@wildmedic.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk Hi all We often talk about putting an IV bag under a patient to provide warmth to the fluid and pressure for infusion with out needing to use a hanger. My practice is to ensure the exclusion of air from the giving set (IV set) and bag - this can entail aspirating from the bag. Clearly small amounts of air are not a problem but the volume in the double chamber of a blood giving set and the small amount in the bag strikes me as possibly being significant Any thoughts? Cheers -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org http://www.wemsi.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8QSSC79VY00109T@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:24:27 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imf02bis.bellsouth.net (mail002.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.22]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jtg ([208.60.233.68]) by imf02bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.01.01 201-252-104) with SMTP id <20010925102428.EGUN233.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@jtg> for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:24:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:23:02 -0400 From: JT Grandey Subject: RE: W-EMED C-spine clearance In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <001b01c145ac$0f7b12e0$0200a8c0@jtg> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu id GAA26398 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk This apparently did not make it to the list, so I am re-sending: JTG I for one, am not aware of any failures, spectacular or otherwise. It is being used more and more widely among EMS systems here in the US, and studies continue to report that it can be properly and safely done by field providers, given an appropriate protocol, training, and medical oversight. In fact, as a result of work that I have been involved with, revising the ALS treatment protocols of the regional EMS system that I work for, combined with a serendipitous article in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, WEMSI is in the process of revising our "recommended protocol" to improve teach-ability, consistent application, and to more closely align its clinical steps with study supported criteria. Sam and Don have endorsed it. As soon as Keith completes his review, I'll make it available. If you can get me more details on the "failures" in Maine, I will be happy to research them. JTG -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of Jel Coward Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 16:51 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED C-spine clearance Hi all Here in the UK there are rumours of 'spectaculor failure' of c-spine clearance in Maine - this info is being pedalled quite hard in some quarters Can I ask our American friends whether you have any information about this, or other c-spine clearance adverse incidents please? Many thanks all Regards -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8Q7QVN6JS00KPXW@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:22:23 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.positech.net (positech.net [205.182.107.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from morgan (buffalo055.positech.net [205.182.107.199]) by home.positech.net (8.11.4/8.11.1) with SMTP id f8ONNx997496 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:23:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:19:59 -0500 From: Morgan Young Subject: RE: W-EMED C-spine clearance In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <000201c14557$d0309280$c76bb6cd@morgan> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk in my area they are watching with excitement what goes on in Maine. they say that we (ems) deciede everyday what we do, and what we don't put on long spine boards. basicaly right now we "board EVERYONE" unless there is only extrimity trauma or whatever. Please bear with me this is broad and loose. Anyway at least in Maine, they (administration and/or medical control) tell us exactly what to board and what not to board. the "Maine way" takes liability off of me and off of medical control and/or administration. -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of Jel Coward Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 15:51 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED C-spine clearance Hi all Here in the UK there are rumours of 'spectaculor failure' of c-spine clearance in Maine - this info is being pedalled quite hard in some quarters Can I ask our American friends whether you have any information about this, or other c-spine clearance adverse incidents please? Many thanks all Regards -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8Q0LY4VRC00LAPB@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:57:35 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crynllwyn.demon.co.uk ([193.237.28.123] helo=wildmedic.org) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15lciH-000GRw-0V; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:52:27 +0100 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:50:54 +0100 From: Jel Coward Subject: W-EMED C-spine clearance Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Precedence: bulk Hi all Here in the UK there are rumours of 'spectaculor failure' of c-spine clearance in Maine - this info is being pedalled quite hard in some quarters Can I ask our American friends whether you have any information about this, or other c-spine clearance adverse incidents please? Many thanks all Regards -- Jel Coward http://www.wildmedic.org jel@wildmedic.org 'There's no such thing as bad weather - just bad clothing" Anon Norwegian Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8JYGRADRW00K0PU@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:51:22 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-server.nlr.nl (spider.nlr.nl [137.17.80.200]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PCR030N (pcr030n.nlr.nl [137.17.228.143]) by smtp-server.nlr.nl (8.11.6/8.11.6/NLR 24/01/2001) with SMTP id f8KCo9X1115442; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:50:09 +0200 (CDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:50:09 +0200 From: Frits van Doorn Subject: RE: W-EMED Fwd: Warning to Duracell battery users In-reply-to: <3BA9AEC6.93D28A68@iwvisp.com> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Disclaimer: "The National Aerospace Laboratory NLR DOES NOT ACCEPT ANY FINANCIAL COMMITMENT derived from this message." Some time ago (about three to four years) here in the Netherland a dive light exploded in the back of a car due to gas buildup inside the light case. As I remember well only one person got injured in the face. Hospitalised. There was no indication on what kind or brand of batteries were used. They blamed it on the dive light. Ever since I open my dive light when I get home and have used it down below. Just in case. As a screwdriver is used to get it out it is highly probable that there has been made a short circuit which initiated the explosion. That is my guess. Just don't play with batteries. I learned that already thirty years ago. Frits van Doorn the Netherlands Free citizen of the world. Free of any constraining religion what so ever. You can shout at a bee-hive and nothing happens. Hit it with a stick and they come after you. PS I want to say through this also that I am deeply shocked by the attack on WTC. My special thoughts go out to those who have lost there lives trying to rescue others and those they leave behind. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 04:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8JQ1MTU0E000NFA@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 04:50:07 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 04:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.iwvisp.com (pop3.iwvisp.com [198.77.196.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 04:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iwvisp.com ([198.77.199.9]) by mail.iwvisp.com with ESMTP (IOA-IPAD 2.54/96) id 6590900; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:48:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:54:41 -0700 From: kit antonsen Subject: Re: W-EMED Fwd: Warning to Duracell battery users Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3BA9AEC6.93D28A68@iwvisp.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en References: <200109180250.WAA22728@mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu> Odd, but up until about 4 years ago I helped do destructive testing on military batteries. Mostly thermal batteries, which pack a whole lot more wollop than the sort of cells your talking about. But we did do a few tests on small batteries. I am not now, nor have I ever been a chemist, so my ability to address the details of the incident are limited. However, you need to realize that a battery works precisely because it is energy stored in chemestry. If you could manage to release all of the energy stored in a AAA battery very rapidly you would get a pretty big bang. A battery the size of a D cell contains formidable power, probably lethal if you could get it to go off. Scarry? Nope. Have you ever heard of someone being killed or injured by their exploding* flashlite? The chemestry used in these sorts of batteries is very stable and well understood. Generally speaking, if you don't do something naughty (like putting one of them in a recharger), they perform exactly as expected: providing safe and reliable power over an extended period of time. So what happened here? I can only make a guess. If you had saved all of the battery and the expelled material, take pictures detailing the damage and expulsion pattern, etc., engineers could do a detailed post mortem. However, since the chemestry once out of the battery is not particularly nice, I would assume (and hope) that you cleaned up and got rid of it. As I recall, the original post indicated that the battery had been stored (unused) inside the unit for a significant period of time. Most likely, either because of internal corrosion or external damage, an internal pathway developed that allowed the chemestry to proceed. The battery continued to generate power (possibly very slowly), but no sufficient electrical path existed to allow dissipation of that energy. So what did it do? It made gas. But the pressure was succesfully contained by a well constructed battery casing. The casing did, however, expand slightly due to the pressure (hence the need to pry it out). However, hanging out for an extended period of time with a bunch of caustic chemicals inside of it, internal corrosion was inevitable. Left long enough, it most likely would have developed a pinhole leak and oozed that gunch all over the inside of the unit. As luck would have it, you got to it when it was weak enough to rupture, but hadn't quite vented on its own. Weakened, pressurized casing meats sharp, deforming point load (the screwdriver), and the rest is history (or physics, really). Lessons learned: Change batteries regularly. Don't leave batteries (even new ones) in a unit when you know it won't be used for quite some time. Do not use sharp tools to dislodge a stuck battery (ok, a nice rule that nobody is gonna respect when their $500 dollar radio has a battery stuck in it). BE CAUTIOUS AROUND ABNORMAL BATTERIES. Don't eat food in a bulged can, don't poke a bulged battery. Given the construction of battery cases, if you do cause a pressurized one to go, most of the force will either go out the end (the end cap will blow off and the internal material will follow) or through a rip in the sidewall where you applied pressure. Don't get your face in the line of fire when trying to dislodge a stuck battery. I hope this helps take some of the energy out of your stored concerns. kit ps, be careful with lithium batteries. they have a much higher power density, and a less stable chemestry. mishandled, they can be dangerous, which is one reason why you don't see AAA lithium batteries at WalMart. *I use the term 'explode' in a non-technical, laymans sense. Energetic chemestry/physics folks get real touchy about what words you use to describe an incident. I saw runaway thermal reaction cause a large thermal battery to develope pressure beyond that which the case could hold, with the result that it vented rapidly. Sounded like a bomb going off to me. Blew large metal fragments a considerable distance (it was fortunately contained a a properly designed test bay). It did not explode. It did not detonate. It vented. Everywhere. Very rapidly. Like in a few milliseconds. We were being naughty with it (part of the job description), but the company completely redesigned that one. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8GKVZSGQY000FU5@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:50:25 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.30]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from page (ts39-7.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.115.62]) by mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA22728 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:50:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Page Subject: Re: W-EMED Fwd: Warning to Duracell battery users Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-Sender: page.95@pop.service.ohio-state.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <200109180250.WAA22728@mail1.uts.ohio-state.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk At 08:12 PM 9/17/01 EDT, you wrote: >For all of us uniformed. Which AAA are you referring to, To All: Yes. I was referring to the Duracel "AAA" label. When I mentioned the ability of such an old battary to rupture when its sides are unctured. AND I had assume the original letter regarding AAA's had meant to do so also - although I DO NOT KNOW for sure. John Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@[136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K8GGZUDGIA000FU5@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:58:59 EST Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from StarGazer.TenForward.com (postfix@stargazer.tenforward.com [206.213.105.3]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tenforward.com (Server.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by StarGazer.TenForward.com (Postfix Relay Hub) with ESMTP id 64834CD2B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from david [65.161.133.176] by tenforward.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id AC4795440138; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:58:47 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:58:43 -0700 From: "The Tate's" Subject: RE: W-EMED Fwd: Warning to Duracell battery users In-reply-to: <133.1b6ae3e.28d7eb64@aol.com> Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C13FA2.6400A420" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C13FA2.6400A420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just from reading it I would guess that we are talking about Duracell AAA Batteries (Triple A). Mind you that is just a guess but I'll bet I am right :) David -----Original Message----- From: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu [mailto:owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu]On Behalf Of Caverbru@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 5:12 PM To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Fwd: Warning to Duracell battery users For all of us uniformed. Which AAA are you referring to, I always think of the American Automobile Association? Which DO? I usually think of Doctor of Osteopathy, if I spelled it correctly. Please enlighten. Thanks, Bru Randall ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C13FA2.6400A420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just=20 from reading it I would guess that we are talking about Duracell = AAA=20 Batteries (Triple A). Mind you that is just a guess but I'll bet I am = right=20 :)
 
David=20